4 ms·

Here's a terrifying thought (which I believe to be correct). I don't think US schools are that bad on fundamentals. They're probably quite good on average. Of

Here's a terrifying thought (which I believe to be correct). I don't think US schools are that bad on fundamentals. They're probably quite good on average. Of course, a large percentage of what makes a school good or bad is the other students, not the teachers or material. I'll get to that... These indifferent, underachieving students (disproportionately, but not entirely, in poor areas) aren't stupid or bad people. I think they're just rational. They see what society has to offer them even if they do succeed and conclude that it's not worth the effort for them. If middle-class, college-educated people are applying for jobs in fast food, then what should a low-income student, who might be able to scrape together enough scholarships to get through undergrad with merely moderately crippling debt, expect? They see people far ahead of them in the socioeconomic queue ending up miserable and disappointed, and conclude that there's no chance of success for them. Most of them are probably right. This country has a deep-seated morale problem, expressed at the top through corruption and dishonesty and nepotism, and at the bottom through indifference and underperformance-- which is most measurable and upsetting in the schools because that's before society has formally given up on people. It stems from fundamentals that will take a long time to fix.

bananacurve 13y ago
> expressed at the top through corruption and dishonesty and nepotism So how do you explain Obama becoming President or the large number of immigrants who are wildly successful?
- johnohara 13y ago
  I take it you're not from Illinois.
  - bananacurve 13y ago
    Maybe you could some arguments that Obama became President through dishonesty, but corruption and nepotism, nonsense.
- VLM 13y ago
  Anecdotes in a macro level discussion?
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  http://www.census.gov/popclock/ http://www.census.gov/popclock/
dba7dba 13y ago
I strongly disagree. US schools are pretty bad on fundamentals. Period. Talking to parents who are here from Asia (for business, grad school), they are shocked how behind the grades are compared to their home countries. And about the underachieving students supposedly not trying harder because they see college educated people applying for fast food jobs, I think that's just not true. And if they really do think that way, I'm sorry but they deserve the poverty they are stuck with. I have history of an entire nation to to prove that people don't stop (and should not stop) studying in school because they see other college grads stuck with low paying or no jobs. S Korea at end of the Korean War (1950-53) was a complete disaster. There were college educated kids in 50's, 60's and 70's but no jobs for them. The country was still largely surviving on foreign aid. The job market was bad enough that when S Korean govt recruited people to go to West Germany to work as 'miners' (mainly to earn foreign currency) in 1963, 2894 men applied. Out of 2894 men, 375 got the job. Basically 1 was selected out of 7. The competition was so fierce that names of who got in were published on national newspaper. Over 60% had completed high school or tertiary education. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Germany http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0708/giyoon/giyoon1.html http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0708/giyoon/giyoon1.html So did the south Korean kids in school stop studying because they saw how college grads were so desperate for jobs that they were willing to go abroad to work as coal miners? Of course not. If the American kids really are afraid of ending up like the other college grads being stuck without jobs, they should study harder, be it in college or vocational training etc.
- VLM 13y ago
  "I think that's just not true." LOL next time you're at a restaurant ask your waitress what her bachelors degree was in. My favorite one did her student teaching portion of her ed degree at my son's school. We massively overproduce early childhood grads.
  - sanskritabelt 13y ago
    I don't think there's any reason to (potentially) embarrass the wait staff. Always be polite, and tip big.

bananacurve 13y ago

> expressed at the top through corruption and dishonesty and nepotism So how do you explain Obama becoming President or the large number of immigrants who are wildly successful?

johnohara 13y ago
I take it you're not from Illinois.
- bananacurve 13y ago
  Maybe you could some arguments that Obama became President through dishonesty, but corruption and nepotism, nonsense.
VLM 13y ago
Anecdotes in a macro level discussion?
michaelochurch 13y ago
http://www.census.gov/popclock/ http://www.census.gov/popclock/

dba7dba 13y ago

I strongly disagree. US schools are pretty bad on fundamentals. Period. Talking to parents who are here from Asia (for business, grad school), they are shocked how behind the grades are compared to their home countries. And about the underachieving students supposedly not trying harder because they see college educated people applying for fast food jobs, I think that's just not true. And if they really do think that way, I'm sorry but they deserve the poverty they are stuck with. I have history of an entire nation to to prove that people don't stop (and should not stop) studying in school because they see other college grads stuck with low paying or no jobs. S Korea at end of the Korean War (1950-53) was a complete disaster. There were college educated kids in 50's, 60's and 70's but no jobs for them. The country was still largely surviving on foreign aid. The job market was bad enough that when S Korean govt recruited people to go to West Germany to work as 'miners' (mainly to earn foreign currency) in 1963, 2894 men applied. Out of 2894 men, 375 got the job. Basically 1 was selected out of 7. The competition was so fierce that names of who got in were published on national newspaper. Over 60% had completed high school or tertiary education. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Germany http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Germany http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0708/giyoon/giyoon1.html http://www.zum.de/whkmla/sp/0708/giyoon/giyoon1.html So did the south Korean kids in school stop studying because they saw how college grads were so desperate for jobs that they were willing to go abroad to work as coal miners? Of course not. If the American kids really are afraid of ending up like the other college grads being stuck without jobs, they should study harder, be it in college or vocational training etc.

VLM 13y ago
"I think that's just not true." LOL next time you're at a restaurant ask your waitress what her bachelors degree was in. My favorite one did her student teaching portion of her ed degree at my son's school. We massively overproduce early childhood grads.
- sanskritabelt 13y ago
  I don't think there's any reason to (potentially) embarrass the wait staff. Always be polite, and tip big.