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I find the statement towards the end that in the United States now achievement has been virtually decoupled from self-esteem to be both true from my own anecodo

I find the statement towards the end that in the United States now achievement has been virtually decoupled from self-esteem to be both true from my own anecodotal experience, and frightening. With no connection there at all, it removes one of the largest motivators, especially in elementary and middle school when for many people there is very limited pressure to work for academic success in the first place. This decoupling is likely to cause a decrease in the overall amount of work put in by the students.

mrbgty 17y ago
Or lead to new, possibly more motivating, reasons to work for academic success. Perhaps teaching will have to change and therefore improve. Maybe instead of spending time memorizing data for fear of a bad grade, students spend time really learning about the subject now that the focus is on the subject rather than the grade.
- timwiseman 17y ago
  It would be excellent if that were to happen, unfortunately, I do not think that is the logical outcome at least for the majority of individuals. I think that when I were in high school if I cared nothing for my grade, I would pay rapt attention in those classes that interested me personally (for me it was math and physics). I would almost completely ignore the other classes and in best case I would spend that class time reading about physics, but more likely daydreaming. Putting the focus on the subject I think would work quite nicely when it is intinsicly interesting to that student, but for all other subjects I believe there needs to be some form of external motivator. If the students see grades as important (because their self esteem and pride is at least partially involved for instance, or because they fear not getting into their chosen college) then that can be the external motivator. Otherwise some other reason will need to be fabricated.
  - mrbgty 17y ago
    Just because you weren't interested in those subjects doesn't mean you can't become interested in them. There are already enough external motivators, such as being forced to be on time and in class or face detention and I believe even eventually jail time. Basically, the students are already forced to be there. Stop worrying about how everyone is measuring up against each other and the rest of the world. If you leave out the measuring stick and just focus on teaching and learning, yes there will be people who still don't learn but, imo, its an overall win and not by a small margin.
    - timwiseman 17y ago
      Your external motivators are for being phyiscally present in class, not for paying attention much less doing the homework and much less going beyond the recommendations. Yes, I am certain I could become interested in them, but there would have to be a reason for it. I am not intrinsically interested in them. This means that for me to actually put effort into them some external motivation would be necessary. When I went through, grades and their tie to college admission (and my parents emphasis on them) was quite sufficient. But if I thought lower grades were just fine, then I would still have learned a great deal about the subjects I was interested in, but very little about the others.
jpeterson 17y ago
The self-esteem thing is really out of control in the US right now. I've heard that in many schools, they do things like have prima facie competitions, but at the end all of the students "win" the award. This "every child is special" thing is nonsense. Let's face it, some kids are just not very talented. To claim otherwise is a disservice to the really talented kids, and it's also dishonest and harmful to the others. If we give them a more realistic view of the world early on, it will eliminate the just-graduated-what-to-do-now haze that everyone here goes through after highschool and college.
- Tamerlin 17y ago
  Talented or not, if you boost their self-esteem without making them earn it, why would they bother putting in the effort? Someone who's quick on his feet and unusually coordinated would be worthless on a tennis court if they don't bother to practice, learn good technique and strategy, and practice. What will happen is worse than rewarding those who don't show talent -- it encourages those who DO have talent to not bother to develop it.
  - Evgeny 17y ago
    "Talented or not, if you boost their self-esteem without making them earn it, why would they bother putting in the effort?" This. I was looking for a long time for a reason why just boosting self-esteem unconditionally is wrong, but could not find a proper wording - thank you.
    - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
      You should read this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset_(book) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset_(book) Telling people they are "smart" or "talented" can make them defensive about that and afraid to fail, or think that putting in effort is a failure in itself. Of course not being afraid to fail, and putting in effort, is how you become "smart" and "talented" in the first place. (It's worth noting the book itself is a bit "American" and fluffy in parts, but the theory is good) Quote from the Wikipedia page: Education: Mindsets have origins, and parents, teachers and coaches happen to be key in their development. Every word or action they send is a message that can be either judgmental or developmental. The problem here is that the majority of the time parents, teachers and coaches do what they think is best for the child, without realizing that they are doing exactly the opposite. Sometimes, by praising children, they diminish them. Praise should be given to the effort and persistence rather than intelligence or talent. For example, if a child worked hard on his homework then he must be recognized, but if another child did the homework without much effort at all, but achieved the expected results, instead of praising him you should give him a more difficult task. The growth mindset in education focuses on expanding the students' knowledge and ways of thinking and investigating the world. Grades are not seen as an end in themselves, but as a means to continue to grow. The best thing to do is to teach children to love challenges, be intrigued by mistakes, enjoy effort, and keep on learning. “Praise should deal, not with the child's personality attributes, but with his efforts and achievements“. - Haim Ginott
david927 17y ago
>This decoupling is likely to cause a decrease in the overall amount of work put in by the students. I'm American but I live in a post-Communist country, and what I've seen in terms of the generations who have had their ambition destroyed is heart-rending. Yet I feel I'm seeing the same in the U.S. as these newer generations have their ambitions stoked and their work ethic demolished. Just this morning I went to Disney.com with my 3-year-old and there was a "kite-flying" game. All you had to do was hit the enter key to make the kite do tricks. And the voice over was: "You're amazing!", "You're very good at kite tricks." and "I've never seen such incredible tricks." She was hitting the enter key randomly. And I thought, "This is so American," and I turned it off. I want her to know that she is talented, but that if she wants to be good at anything she'll have to work her ass off. The cure for the low-self-esteem disease is not mindless, superfluous praise; it's recognizing each step in the journey and encouraging the next one.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- christofd 17y ago
  I remember visiting my cousin in Pittsburgh, P.A., in high school (from Germany, where I went to school) and they were handing out candies for solving simple arithmetic problems in math class. I was like... what??? There are many examples on how American society acts very encouraging towards kids, as opposed to Europeans.

mrbgty 17y ago

Or lead to new, possibly more motivating, reasons to work for academic success. Perhaps teaching will have to change and therefore improve. Maybe instead of spending time memorizing data for fear of a bad grade, students spend time really learning about the subject now that the focus is on the subject rather than the grade.

timwiseman 17y ago
It would be excellent if that were to happen, unfortunately, I do not think that is the logical outcome at least for the majority of individuals. I think that when I were in high school if I cared nothing for my grade, I would pay rapt attention in those classes that interested me personally (for me it was math and physics). I would almost completely ignore the other classes and in best case I would spend that class time reading about physics, but more likely daydreaming. Putting the focus on the subject I think would work quite nicely when it is intinsicly interesting to that student, but for all other subjects I believe there needs to be some form of external motivator. If the students see grades as important (because their self esteem and pride is at least partially involved for instance, or because they fear not getting into their chosen college) then that can be the external motivator. Otherwise some other reason will need to be fabricated.
- mrbgty 17y ago
  Just because you weren't interested in those subjects doesn't mean you can't become interested in them. There are already enough external motivators, such as being forced to be on time and in class or face detention and I believe even eventually jail time. Basically, the students are already forced to be there. Stop worrying about how everyone is measuring up against each other and the rest of the world. If you leave out the measuring stick and just focus on teaching and learning, yes there will be people who still don't learn but, imo, its an overall win and not by a small margin.
  - timwiseman 17y ago
    Your external motivators are for being phyiscally present in class, not for paying attention much less doing the homework and much less going beyond the recommendations. Yes, I am certain I could become interested in them, but there would have to be a reason for it. I am not intrinsically interested in them. This means that for me to actually put effort into them some external motivation would be necessary. When I went through, grades and their tie to college admission (and my parents emphasis on them) was quite sufficient. But if I thought lower grades were just fine, then I would still have learned a great deal about the subjects I was interested in, but very little about the others.

jpeterson 17y ago

The self-esteem thing is really out of control in the US right now. I've heard that in many schools, they do things like have prima facie competitions, but at the end all of the students "win" the award. This "every child is special" thing is nonsense. Let's face it, some kids are just not very talented. To claim otherwise is a disservice to the really talented kids, and it's also dishonest and harmful to the others. If we give them a more realistic view of the world early on, it will eliminate the just-graduated-what-to-do-now haze that everyone here goes through after highschool and college.

Tamerlin 17y ago
Talented or not, if you boost their self-esteem without making them earn it, why would they bother putting in the effort? Someone who's quick on his feet and unusually coordinated would be worthless on a tennis court if they don't bother to practice, learn good technique and strategy, and practice. What will happen is worse than rewarding those who don't show talent -- it encourages those who DO have talent to not bother to develop it.
- Evgeny 17y ago
  "Talented or not, if you boost their self-esteem without making them earn it, why would they bother putting in the effort?" This. I was looking for a long time for a reason why just boosting self-esteem unconditionally is wrong, but could not find a proper wording - thank you.
  - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
    You should read this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset_(book) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset_(book) Telling people they are "smart" or "talented" can make them defensive about that and afraid to fail, or think that putting in effort is a failure in itself. Of course not being afraid to fail, and putting in effort, is how you become "smart" and "talented" in the first place. (It's worth noting the book itself is a bit "American" and fluffy in parts, but the theory is good) Quote from the Wikipedia page: Education: Mindsets have origins, and parents, teachers and coaches happen to be key in their development. Every word or action they send is a message that can be either judgmental or developmental. The problem here is that the majority of the time parents, teachers and coaches do what they think is best for the child, without realizing that they are doing exactly the opposite. Sometimes, by praising children, they diminish them. Praise should be given to the effort and persistence rather than intelligence or talent. For example, if a child worked hard on his homework then he must be recognized, but if another child did the homework without much effort at all, but achieved the expected results, instead of praising him you should give him a more difficult task. The growth mindset in education focuses on expanding the students' knowledge and ways of thinking and investigating the world. Grades are not seen as an end in themselves, but as a means to continue to grow. The best thing to do is to teach children to love challenges, be intrigued by mistakes, enjoy effort, and keep on learning. “Praise should deal, not with the child's personality attributes, but with his efforts and achievements“. - Haim Ginott

david927 17y ago

>This decoupling is likely to cause a decrease in the overall amount of work put in by the students. I'm American but I live in a post-Communist country, and what I've seen in terms of the generations who have had their ambition destroyed is heart-rending. Yet I feel I'm seeing the same in the U.S. as these newer generations have their ambitions stoked and their work ethic demolished. Just this morning I went to Disney.com with my 3-year-old and there was a "kite-flying" game. All you had to do was hit the enter key to make the kite do tricks. And the voice over was: "You're amazing!", "You're very good at kite tricks." and "I've never seen such incredible tricks." She was hitting the enter key randomly. And I thought, "This is so American," and I turned it off. I want her to know that she is talented, but that if she wants to be good at anything she'll have to work her ass off. The cure for the low-self-esteem disease is not mindless, superfluous praise; it's recognizing each step in the journey and encouraging the next one.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
christofd 17y ago
I remember visiting my cousin in Pittsburgh, P.A., in high school (from Germany, where I went to school) and they were handing out candies for solving simple arithmetic problems in math class. I was like... what??? There are many examples on how American society acts very encouraging towards kids, as opposed to Europeans.