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What is the diference between a car and an iPhone? I could very well see a kid charging his iPhone at soccer practice to call mom for a ride home (or whatever).

by 001sky 13y ago

What is the diference between a car and an iPhone? I could very well see a kid charging his iPhone at soccer practice to call mom for a ride home (or whatever). The issue is a commercial grade of service vs an residential or amateur one. The behaviour (say, recharging your laptop at starbucks) is not inherently larceny ("theft of property") in terms of social norms. Or are you suggesting it should be?

mikeash 13y ago
I personally find it quite odd that we've normalized the behavior of plugging electronics into random electrical outlets not explicitly labeled for public use. Not that I haven't done my fair share of the same over the years (especially in airports), but it's strange just the same.
- cptskippy 13y ago
  I've always found it odd as well, so I was happy to see the terminals at a number of airports this summer all offering copious outlets for passengers to top-up devices.
- NickM 13y ago
  In most parts of the US it costs less than a tenth of a cent to charge an iPhone. I think it would be extremely rare that any business or organization would choose saving the minuscule cost of electricity over allowing people who need a charge to take one, so in practice it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume it's okay in most situations.
leephillips 13y ago
My wife will not plug in her iPhone to charge it at work. It all depends on your ethical standards. I, on the other hand, never thought twice about doing this. EDIT: Didn't think I would have to actually explain this, but here goes: the phone is for her personal use, unlike the computer, monitor, and other things on her desk supplied, along with the electricity, by her employer.
- manmal 13y ago
  If she is using a particularly bright monitor setting that might use more electricity per day than a plugged in phone.
- summerdown2 13y ago
  Does she not think about work issues at home? Solve problems in her sleep? I doubt she's paid overtime for that. Surely it's about give and take?
bmelton 13y ago
Do you plug your in your iPhone without permission? I've always thought that plugging in at random spots was theft, however small the scale, and applauded the coffee shop culture for offering WiFi and power as a cost of doing business, but without at least some form of permission, make no mistake, stealing power is no less theft than stealing cable, or gasoline, or whatever.
- 001sky 13y ago
  A $0.10 pencil is worth 200x the value of an full iphone charge[1,2]. [1] which has an economic value of ~ $0.0005 in the USA. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#Price_comparison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#Price_comp...
  - bmelton 13y ago
    Does that invalidate that taking it is theft? How many of these non-thefts have to occur before the victim can claim damages? Much financial theft is done on the order of fractions of cents, but those fractions of theft add up to real, tangible amounts. If I steal half a penny from a local shop owner, and the police don't/can't/won't stop me, then others might do the same. If 100 others do it, he's lost a nickel. If a thousand people do it, it's 5 bucks. Where is the line before it becomes theft? Why is everybody allowed to take from this hypothetical shop owner and he has no recompense?
    - 001sky 13y ago
      A good argument could be made you are stealing more economic value from every reader of HN who reads this comment filled with rhetorical questions. Should we call the police? Probably not, because that would be an ass-hat gesture of bad faith. Similarly, sending every customer a paper bill (that costs $2.00/per) for every incidental economic cost of 1/20th of a cent is not only bad social form, its just dumb economics. The game changes when you opportunistically take advantage of social graces. That I will not debate. The purpose is to do the math and to understand why some things are benevolent "social graces" and others are malevolent behaviours. Theoretical moral relativism (or equivalence) taken out of context is empty logic, tho.

by 001sky 13y ago

mikeash 13y ago

I personally find it quite odd that we've normalized the behavior of plugging electronics into random electrical outlets not explicitly labeled for public use. Not that I haven't done my fair share of the same over the years (especially in airports), but it's strange just the same.

cptskippy 13y ago
I've always found it odd as well, so I was happy to see the terminals at a number of airports this summer all offering copious outlets for passengers to top-up devices.
NickM 13y ago
In most parts of the US it costs less than a tenth of a cent to charge an iPhone. I think it would be extremely rare that any business or organization would choose saving the minuscule cost of electricity over allowing people who need a charge to take one, so in practice it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume it's okay in most situations.

leephillips 13y ago

My wife will not plug in her iPhone to charge it at work. It all depends on your ethical standards. I, on the other hand, never thought twice about doing this. EDIT: Didn't think I would have to actually explain this, but here goes: the phone is for her personal use, unlike the computer, monitor, and other things on her desk supplied, along with the electricity, by her employer.

manmal 13y ago
If she is using a particularly bright monitor setting that might use more electricity per day than a plugged in phone.
summerdown2 13y ago
Does she not think about work issues at home? Solve problems in her sleep? I doubt she's paid overtime for that. Surely it's about give and take?

bmelton 13y ago

Do you plug your in your iPhone without permission? I've always thought that plugging in at random spots was theft, however small the scale, and applauded the coffee shop culture for offering WiFi and power as a cost of doing business, but without at least some form of permission, make no mistake, stealing power is no less theft than stealing cable, or gasoline, or whatever.

001sky 13y ago
A $0.10 pencil is worth 200x the value of an full iphone charge[1,2]. [1] which has an economic value of ~ $0.0005 in the USA. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#Price_comparison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#Price_comp...
- bmelton 13y ago
  Does that invalidate that taking it is theft? How many of these non-thefts have to occur before the victim can claim damages? Much financial theft is done on the order of fractions of cents, but those fractions of theft add up to real, tangible amounts. If I steal half a penny from a local shop owner, and the police don't/can't/won't stop me, then others might do the same. If 100 others do it, he's lost a nickel. If a thousand people do it, it's 5 bucks. Where is the line before it becomes theft? Why is everybody allowed to take from this hypothetical shop owner and he has no recompense?
  - 001sky 13y ago
    A good argument could be made you are stealing more economic value from every reader of HN who reads this comment filled with rhetorical questions. Should we call the police? Probably not, because that would be an ass-hat gesture of bad faith. Similarly, sending every customer a paper bill (that costs $2.00/per) for every incidental economic cost of 1/20th of a cent is not only bad social form, its just dumb economics. The game changes when you opportunistically take advantage of social graces. That I will not debate. The purpose is to do the math and to understand why some things are benevolent "social graces" and others are malevolent behaviours. Theoretical moral relativism (or equivalence) taken out of context is empty logic, tho.