7 ms·

How much does an electric car cost to charge?

by nodata 13y ago

peterjancelis 13y ago
High single digit dollars.
mschuster91 13y ago
I don't know the specs of US wall outlets, but on a standard European wall outlet with 16A @230V a charge time of 20 minutes (as in the article) should give a energy consumption of approximate 1 kWh (US should be 16A @110V IIRC, so the power consumption is 0.5 kWh), given a price of 10 ct/kWh we have a cost of 10 cents. Now, if you count in the time cost for law enforcement (15 hours in jail, the petrol from picking up the suspect and re-delivering him home, multiple hours of paperwork), the cost of enforcement is likely to be tens of thousands times more expensive than the value of the "stolen" goods. But hey, the US aren't exactly known for applying common sense in law enforcement. And anyone placing a open wall outlet without a lock on a totally public area (a parking lot!) is not in any position to whine later on.
- mikeash 13y ago
  I must disagree most strenuously with your last sentence. A person does not need to take steps to secure his belongings in order to have the right to complain about theft. Leaving the stuff unlocked is not particularly wise, but theft is still theft when it's easy, and the victim still has a right to his property.
  - mschuster91 13y ago
    Public electricity supplies on parking lots are on the rise - I personally would consider a wall outlet on a parking lot without a lock or sign as a free-to-charge-my-car outlet.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      Around here, all such supplies have clear signage that they're available to the public. Maybe it's different where you are?
      - jessaustin 13y ago
        Where is "here"? I've lived all over the USA and in various other nations, and the only place I've seen signs like that is inside the secured zone at certain airports.
        mikeash 13y ago
        They're all over the place in Northern Virginia, and I saw a bunch in California when I was there recently too. They look something like this: http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/public-charging-station.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/publ...
        jessaustin 13y ago
        Well that's a non sequitur. We're talking about a standard NEMA 5-15 receptacle, which have seen wide use for decades. In the parking context, they're often used in cold climates to ensure that the vehicle will start sometime before spring. Now you show us a picture of one of these new EV doodads that might not even have a standard plug. What is that supposed to mean? The creation of a new technology doesn't change the implicit understanding that millions of people have about really old technology. However, it might mean that managers of public spaces who have their drawers on a bit too tight, ought to buy either a sign or some padlocks.
        mikeash 13y ago
        I've never seen anyone charging an electric car from a standard NEMA 5-15 receptacle. So maybe that was what you were talking about, but it's certainly not what "we're talking about". I don't think I've ever seen one of those receptacles made available for public use in parking garages. Presumably it's something from a colder climate than where I live. Note that the incident we're discussing happened in Georgia, where such things are not needed.
  - smileysteve 13y ago
    Legally speaking, they technically need to. This is why the landowner is liable for damages to a trespasser unless a no trespassing sign is up.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      Absolutely not. The question of liability is a completely different one. Just because you can be liable doesn't mean they have the right to be there. If I leave a stack of $100 bills sitting in front of my door and you take them, that is theft and you can be prosecuted and I most certainly have the right to complain about it, even if I really should have kept it more securely.
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    Concerned (irrationally so, but whatever) owners might simply buy a padlock for each accessible outdoor receptacle near the parking lot. Padlocks are very clear signals concerning the public availability of amenities. I have no complaint about involving police when padlocks are broken or otherwise bypassed, whereas I doubt police resources are well-spent in reacting to an incident the owner could have prevented by spending $10.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      I completely agree about the wisdom of padlocking things you want to secure, and am undecided about the utility of calling police when you fail to, but these are completely orthogonal concerns to the question of a property owner's legal and moral rights, and his right to complain, in the event that they're the victims of theft for something they haven't secured.
- saalweachter 13y ago
  Nit: disproportionate retaliation is a rational strategy against aggregate loss. The classic example is, your neighboring tribe steals a goat. You could chase after them, but then there'd be a confrontation, and some of your people would probably get killed. It's not worth a life for a goat. But then next week, and the week after, and the week after that, another goat is stolen. Each week the same calculus holds: one goat is much less than one life. In the aggregate, though, you've lost dozens or hundreds of goats. Too many. On the other hand, you can respond to the theft of a goat disproportionately. You can chase after the thieves, confront them, beat them, kill them. Some of your people will die, some of their people will die. Next week, they don't come back to steal a goat. A goat isn't worth one of them dying over, either. Your tribe has a reputation of "not to be messed with", and the thefts stop. It may be the horrific underpinning of all types of warfare, from gang to nation-state, but it is pretty rational, and provides a solid reason to spend a thousand bucks prosecuting a 5-cent theft: it's not about punishing the 5-cent theft, it's about preventing the future aggregate theft of thousands of dollars.
  - Retric 13y ago
    While a rational strategy for defending a goat it does not apply for someone stealing a grape. There both food, but a two order of magnatude loss may be worth it a four order of magnatude loss is probably not. Edit: Which is why fines are used for minor offences they dramaticly reduce the cost of enforcement. And really refilling an electric car is about the same cost to society (1-2$) as someone not paying a parking meter so the response should be vary similar.
    - mschuster91 13y ago
      Nope, not paying a parking meter has more of a social cost attached - you're keeping people wanting to pay for parking from a parking lot, forcing them to drive around more and lose time.
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    Certainly that's the rationale that the smarter prosecutors will eventually produce, after we're all bored of hearing about "the rule of law" from the same people who regularly do so much to undermine it. At some price level for electricity, that rationale would even make sense. However, it's far from clear that we're at that price level. A parking lot is a public amenity. (Some lots are restricted to authorized people or even charge for use, but that's beside the point.) That amenity often includes anywhere from one to several dozen bright electric lights, that are on from dusk until some time after close of business, or even until morning. No one is charged for the kWh that lighting consumes, as that is understood to be part of the cost of operating a parking lot.
- dkokelley 13y ago
  Regarding your last paragraph, I must disagree with the implication that the U.S. should not enforce crimes that cost more than the damages that were done. First, the officer's time is already a sunk cost. The real cost is the opportunity cost of not patrolling while filling out paperwork. ("Don't you have REAL criminals to find?") If anything, this should be weighed against the deterrent for future crimes (e.g. Punishing 1 thief prevents 1,000 other thefts). Secondly, this would set a bad precedent for law enforcement. Most crimes aren't worth the ~$10,000 in time and materials spent working any case. What about crimes that can't be dollarized? Trespassers don't cost property owners any money, but the owners still expect law enforcement support in removing the trespassers. I don't agree that plugging into an open outlet is stealing, and I believe that the charges (pun not intended) will be dropped excepting a verbal wrist-slap to not do it again. Perhaps in the future the school will either restrict access to the outlet or provide a sign that forbids electric vehicle charging.
jusben1369 13y ago
In the US (IL specifically) I saw an article that said $2 per 85 miles (about 140km) driven. So let's say you're in the US and you really care about the cost of driving (one of the main reasons for you getting an electric car) you might compare to a gasoline car getting 30 - 40 mpg. At roughly $3.50 per gallon right now We could round up and say you're paying $8 to $9 to get that same 85 miles with a (by American standards) fuel efficient car. So if you're paying $40 - $50 to fill your car thats' about $10 in electricity. Of course if you've got a 6 cylinder with some regular traffic driving you're probably much closer to 20mpg so you're at $15 vs $2 above. Pretty meaningful. (yes I'm ignoring other costs involved including setting up your house to charge a car and the additional cost for an electric car up front vs its gasoline peer)

How much does an electric car cost to charge?

by nodata 13y ago

How much does an electric car cost to charge?

peterjancelis 13y ago

High single digit dollars.

mschuster91 13y ago

I don't know the specs of US wall outlets, but on a standard European wall outlet with 16A @230V a charge time of 20 minutes (as in the article) should give a energy consumption of approximate 1 kWh (US should be 16A @110V IIRC, so the power consumption is 0.5 kWh), given a price of 10 ct/kWh we have a cost of 10 cents. Now, if you count in the time cost for law enforcement (15 hours in jail, the petrol from picking up the suspect and re-delivering him home, multiple hours of paperwork), the cost of enforcement is likely to be tens of thousands times more expensive than the value of the "stolen" goods. But hey, the US aren't exactly known for applying common sense in law enforcement. And anyone placing a open wall outlet without a lock on a totally public area (a parking lot!) is not in any position to whine later on.

mikeash 13y ago
I must disagree most strenuously with your last sentence. A person does not need to take steps to secure his belongings in order to have the right to complain about theft. Leaving the stuff unlocked is not particularly wise, but theft is still theft when it's easy, and the victim still has a right to his property.
- mschuster91 13y ago
  Public electricity supplies on parking lots are on the rise - I personally would consider a wall outlet on a parking lot without a lock or sign as a free-to-charge-my-car outlet.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Around here, all such supplies have clear signage that they're available to the public. Maybe it's different where you are?
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      Where is "here"? I've lived all over the USA and in various other nations, and the only place I've seen signs like that is inside the secured zone at certain airports.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        They're all over the place in Northern Virginia, and I saw a bunch in California when I was there recently too. They look something like this: http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/public-charging-station.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/publ...
        jessaustin 13y ago
        Well that's a non sequitur. We're talking about a standard NEMA 5-15 receptacle, which have seen wide use for decades. In the parking context, they're often used in cold climates to ensure that the vehicle will start sometime before spring. Now you show us a picture of one of these new EV doodads that might not even have a standard plug. What is that supposed to mean? The creation of a new technology doesn't change the implicit understanding that millions of people have about really old technology. However, it might mean that managers of public spaces who have their drawers on a bit too tight, ought to buy either a sign or some padlocks.
        mikeash 13y ago
        I've never seen anyone charging an electric car from a standard NEMA 5-15 receptacle. So maybe that was what you were talking about, but it's certainly not what "we're talking about". I don't think I've ever seen one of those receptacles made available for public use in parking garages. Presumably it's something from a colder climate than where I live. Note that the incident we're discussing happened in Georgia, where such things are not needed.
- smileysteve 13y ago
  Legally speaking, they technically need to. This is why the landowner is liable for damages to a trespasser unless a no trespassing sign is up.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Absolutely not. The question of liability is a completely different one. Just because you can be liable doesn't mean they have the right to be there. If I leave a stack of $100 bills sitting in front of my door and you take them, that is theft and you can be prosecuted and I most certainly have the right to complain about it, even if I really should have kept it more securely.
- jessaustin 13y ago
  Concerned (irrationally so, but whatever) owners might simply buy a padlock for each accessible outdoor receptacle near the parking lot. Padlocks are very clear signals concerning the public availability of amenities. I have no complaint about involving police when padlocks are broken or otherwise bypassed, whereas I doubt police resources are well-spent in reacting to an incident the owner could have prevented by spending $10.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I completely agree about the wisdom of padlocking things you want to secure, and am undecided about the utility of calling police when you fail to, but these are completely orthogonal concerns to the question of a property owner's legal and moral rights, and his right to complain, in the event that they're the victims of theft for something they haven't secured.
saalweachter 13y ago
Nit: disproportionate retaliation is a rational strategy against aggregate loss. The classic example is, your neighboring tribe steals a goat. You could chase after them, but then there'd be a confrontation, and some of your people would probably get killed. It's not worth a life for a goat. But then next week, and the week after, and the week after that, another goat is stolen. Each week the same calculus holds: one goat is much less than one life. In the aggregate, though, you've lost dozens or hundreds of goats. Too many. On the other hand, you can respond to the theft of a goat disproportionately. You can chase after the thieves, confront them, beat them, kill them. Some of your people will die, some of their people will die. Next week, they don't come back to steal a goat. A goat isn't worth one of them dying over, either. Your tribe has a reputation of "not to be messed with", and the thefts stop. It may be the horrific underpinning of all types of warfare, from gang to nation-state, but it is pretty rational, and provides a solid reason to spend a thousand bucks prosecuting a 5-cent theft: it's not about punishing the 5-cent theft, it's about preventing the future aggregate theft of thousands of dollars.
- Retric 13y ago
  While a rational strategy for defending a goat it does not apply for someone stealing a grape. There both food, but a two order of magnatude loss may be worth it a four order of magnatude loss is probably not. Edit: Which is why fines are used for minor offences they dramaticly reduce the cost of enforcement. And really refilling an electric car is about the same cost to society (1-2$) as someone not paying a parking meter so the response should be vary similar.
  - mschuster91 13y ago
    Nope, not paying a parking meter has more of a social cost attached - you're keeping people wanting to pay for parking from a parking lot, forcing them to drive around more and lose time.
- jessaustin 13y ago
  Certainly that's the rationale that the smarter prosecutors will eventually produce, after we're all bored of hearing about "the rule of law" from the same people who regularly do so much to undermine it. At some price level for electricity, that rationale would even make sense. However, it's far from clear that we're at that price level. A parking lot is a public amenity. (Some lots are restricted to authorized people or even charge for use, but that's beside the point.) That amenity often includes anywhere from one to several dozen bright electric lights, that are on from dusk until some time after close of business, or even until morning. No one is charged for the kWh that lighting consumes, as that is understood to be part of the cost of operating a parking lot.
dkokelley 13y ago
Regarding your last paragraph, I must disagree with the implication that the U.S. should not enforce crimes that cost more than the damages that were done. First, the officer's time is already a sunk cost. The real cost is the opportunity cost of not patrolling while filling out paperwork. ("Don't you have REAL criminals to find?") If anything, this should be weighed against the deterrent for future crimes (e.g. Punishing 1 thief prevents 1,000 other thefts). Secondly, this would set a bad precedent for law enforcement. Most crimes aren't worth the ~$10,000 in time and materials spent working any case. What about crimes that can't be dollarized? Trespassers don't cost property owners any money, but the owners still expect law enforcement support in removing the trespassers. I don't agree that plugging into an open outlet is stealing, and I believe that the charges (pun not intended) will be dropped excepting a verbal wrist-slap to not do it again. Perhaps in the future the school will either restrict access to the outlet or provide a sign that forbids electric vehicle charging.

jusben1369 13y ago

In the US (IL specifically) I saw an article that said $2 per 85 miles (about 140km) driven. So let's say you're in the US and you really care about the cost of driving (one of the main reasons for you getting an electric car) you might compare to a gasoline car getting 30 - 40 mpg. At roughly $3.50 per gallon right now We could round up and say you're paying $8 to $9 to get that same 85 miles with a (by American standards) fuel efficient car. So if you're paying $40 - $50 to fill your car thats' about $10 in electricity. Of course if you've got a 6 cylinder with some regular traffic driving you're probably much closer to 20mpg so you're at $15 vs $2 above. Pretty meaningful. (yes I'm ignoring other costs involved including setting up your house to charge a car and the additional cost for an electric car up front vs its gasoline peer)