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It's interesting. Putting aside the actual value and concentrating on the behavior. If a driver knew that a school keep gasoline for filling up buses or other p

It's interesting. Putting aside the actual value and concentrating on the behavior. If a driver knew that a school keep gasoline for filling up buses or other purposes and went and topped up his car while his son played tennis he/she would be fully aware that they were stealing. They may still do it, but it wouldn't make the papers and/or they wouldn't act surprised if they were caught "Oh can't anyone take the petrol if they need it?"

mschuster91 13y ago
The difference here is the perception: while everyone knows petrol is an expensive good, many people don't view electricity as something stealable - it's not really tangible, and you're dealing in amounts that can be fractions of a cent.
- nodata 13y ago
  How much does an electric car cost to charge?
  - peterjancelis 13y ago
    High single digit dollars.
  - mschuster91 13y ago
    I don't know the specs of US wall outlets, but on a standard European wall outlet with 16A @230V a charge time of 20 minutes (as in the article) should give a energy consumption of approximate 1 kWh (US should be 16A @110V IIRC, so the power consumption is 0.5 kWh), given a price of 10 ct/kWh we have a cost of 10 cents. Now, if you count in the time cost for law enforcement (15 hours in jail, the petrol from picking up the suspect and re-delivering him home, multiple hours of paperwork), the cost of enforcement is likely to be tens of thousands times more expensive than the value of the "stolen" goods. But hey, the US aren't exactly known for applying common sense in law enforcement. And anyone placing a open wall outlet without a lock on a totally public area (a parking lot!) is not in any position to whine later on.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      I must disagree most strenuously with your last sentence. A person does not need to take steps to secure his belongings in order to have the right to complain about theft. Leaving the stuff unlocked is not particularly wise, but theft is still theft when it's easy, and the victim still has a right to his property.
      - mschuster91 13y ago
        Public electricity supplies on parking lots are on the rise - I personally would consider a wall outlet on a parking lot without a lock or sign as a free-to-charge-my-car outlet.
        mikeash 13y ago
        Around here, all such supplies have clear signage that they're available to the public. Maybe it's different where you are?
        jessaustin 13y ago
        Where is "here"? I've lived all over the USA and in various other nations, and the only place I've seen signs like that is inside the secured zone at certain airports.
        mikeash 13y ago
        They're all over the place in Northern Virginia, and I saw a bunch in California when I was there recently too. They look something like this: http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/public-charging-station.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/publ...
        jessaustin 13y ago
        Well that's a non sequitur. We're talking about a standard NEMA 5-15 receptacle, which have seen wide use for decades. In the parking context, they're often used in cold climates to ensure that the vehicle will start sometime before spring. Now you show us a picture of one of these new EV doodads that might not even have a standard plug. What is that supposed to mean? The creation of a new technology doesn't change the implicit understanding that millions of people have about really old technology. However, it might mean that managers of public spaces who have their drawers on a bit too tight, ought to buy either a sign or some padlocks.
  - jusben1369 13y ago
    In the US (IL specifically) I saw an article that said $2 per 85 miles (about 140km) driven. So let's say you're in the US and you really care about the cost of driving (one of the main reasons for you getting an electric car) you might compare to a gasoline car getting 30 - 40 mpg. At roughly $3.50 per gallon right now We could round up and say you're paying $8 to $9 to get that same 85 miles with a (by American standards) fuel efficient car. So if you're paying $40 - $50 to fill your car thats' about $10 in electricity. Of course if you've got a 6 cylinder with some regular traffic driving you're probably much closer to 20mpg so you're at $15 vs $2 above. Pretty meaningful. (yes I'm ignoring other costs involved including setting up your house to charge a car and the additional cost for an electric car up front vs its gasoline peer)
- bmelton 13y ago
  I'll agree with that and add to it as well -- there's also the perception that powering up a whole car is an expensive endeavor. I can easily imagine that the cop who saw the guy plugged in probably saw dollars trickling from the wall, where a cell phone plugged in wouldn't seem as expensive. I feel like petty theft incidents like this for first-time offenders should be handled more delicately -- e.g., he can pay back the amount stolen, and perhaps a $50 court cost, but while I agree that jail seems excessive for the crime, there was indeed a crime committed, and perhaps illustrating to the officers that it was only 5 cents worth of crime would lessen the severity.
ZeroGravitas 13y ago
A closer analogy would be taking water from an outside tap, which again putting the value aside (even though it's much closer), people would be highly surprised to see someone arrested for theft of water and would actually think that outside taps in a public place might be intended to be used by the public who have access to the facilities.
- 001sky 13y ago
  This is a good analogy. For reference, a Telsa Model S is like lining up 14,000 people to take a sip. An iPhone is one person.[1] So, in this case the issue is what happens when you exploit a social norm by 3x orders of magnitude? One the one hand its a "hack", on the other its "opportunistically, selfishly gaming the system". YMMV. [1] This is back of the envelope, 5.77wh vs 85kwhr.
  - dkokelley 13y ago
    FYI, it was a Nissan Leaf according to the article, not a Tesla. The Leaf has a more modest 24 kWh battery. (So you're really only lining up ~4,000 people and only letting the first few hundred take a sip.)
  - freehunter 13y ago
    I know people turn on the taps in schools and leave them running after they leave, letting the water flow uselessly while no one is there. My high school had plenty of broken urinals that were constantly running water, or had the plunger stuck down. Someone may get detention for that stunt, but never arrested.
- bane 13y ago
  Now lets say I put a small electric motor on that tap and turn it on for a few hours so I can charge my phone or a few days to charge my car? (don't think I didn't toy with the idea when I lived in an apartment with water included in the rent but not electricity).
  - bananacurve 13y ago
001sky 13y ago
What is the diference between a car and an iPhone? I could very well see a kid charging his iPhone at soccer practice to call mom for a ride home (or whatever). The issue is a commercial grade of service vs an residential or amateur one. The behaviour (say, recharging your laptop at starbucks) is not inherently larceny ("theft of property") in terms of social norms. Or are you suggesting it should be?
- mikeash 13y ago
  I personally find it quite odd that we've normalized the behavior of plugging electronics into random electrical outlets not explicitly labeled for public use. Not that I haven't done my fair share of the same over the years (especially in airports), but it's strange just the same.
  - cptskippy 13y ago
    I've always found it odd as well, so I was happy to see the terminals at a number of airports this summer all offering copious outlets for passengers to top-up devices.
  - NickM 13y ago
    In most parts of the US it costs less than a tenth of a cent to charge an iPhone. I think it would be extremely rare that any business or organization would choose saving the minuscule cost of electricity over allowing people who need a charge to take one, so in practice it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume it's okay in most situations.
- leephillips 13y ago
  My wife will not plug in her iPhone to charge it at work. It all depends on your ethical standards. I, on the other hand, never thought twice about doing this. EDIT: Didn't think I would have to actually explain this, but here goes: the phone is for her personal use, unlike the computer, monitor, and other things on her desk supplied, along with the electricity, by her employer.
  - 13y ago
makhanko 13y ago
I wonder if using outlet would be considered a fair use of the facilities. The car owner's son was playing tennis at the school which means he was given a permission to use the facility. If this is the case then using the parking lot, drinking fountain, water in the bathroom, light or electric outlet at the school should be considered a fair use unless there is something that indicates otherwise (like a no-parking sign)

mschuster91 13y ago

The difference here is the perception: while everyone knows petrol is an expensive good, many people don't view electricity as something stealable - it's not really tangible, and you're dealing in amounts that can be fractions of a cent.

nodata 13y ago
How much does an electric car cost to charge?
- peterjancelis 13y ago
  High single digit dollars.
- mschuster91 13y ago
  I don't know the specs of US wall outlets, but on a standard European wall outlet with 16A @230V a charge time of 20 minutes (as in the article) should give a energy consumption of approximate 1 kWh (US should be 16A @110V IIRC, so the power consumption is 0.5 kWh), given a price of 10 ct/kWh we have a cost of 10 cents. Now, if you count in the time cost for law enforcement (15 hours in jail, the petrol from picking up the suspect and re-delivering him home, multiple hours of paperwork), the cost of enforcement is likely to be tens of thousands times more expensive than the value of the "stolen" goods. But hey, the US aren't exactly known for applying common sense in law enforcement. And anyone placing a open wall outlet without a lock on a totally public area (a parking lot!) is not in any position to whine later on.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    I must disagree most strenuously with your last sentence. A person does not need to take steps to secure his belongings in order to have the right to complain about theft. Leaving the stuff unlocked is not particularly wise, but theft is still theft when it's easy, and the victim still has a right to his property.
    - mschuster91 13y ago
      Public electricity supplies on parking lots are on the rise - I personally would consider a wall outlet on a parking lot without a lock or sign as a free-to-charge-my-car outlet.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        Around here, all such supplies have clear signage that they're available to the public. Maybe it's different where you are?
        jessaustin 13y ago
        Where is "here"? I've lived all over the USA and in various other nations, and the only place I've seen signs like that is inside the secured zone at certain airports.
        mikeash 13y ago
        They're all over the place in Northern Virginia, and I saw a bunch in California when I was there recently too. They look something like this: http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/public-charging-station.jpg http://www.blogcdn.com/green.autoblog.com/media/2012/12/publ...
        jessaustin 13y ago
        Well that's a non sequitur. We're talking about a standard NEMA 5-15 receptacle, which have seen wide use for decades. In the parking context, they're often used in cold climates to ensure that the vehicle will start sometime before spring. Now you show us a picture of one of these new EV doodads that might not even have a standard plug. What is that supposed to mean? The creation of a new technology doesn't change the implicit understanding that millions of people have about really old technology. However, it might mean that managers of public spaces who have their drawers on a bit too tight, ought to buy either a sign or some padlocks.
- jusben1369 13y ago
  In the US (IL specifically) I saw an article that said $2 per 85 miles (about 140km) driven. So let's say you're in the US and you really care about the cost of driving (one of the main reasons for you getting an electric car) you might compare to a gasoline car getting 30 - 40 mpg. At roughly $3.50 per gallon right now We could round up and say you're paying $8 to $9 to get that same 85 miles with a (by American standards) fuel efficient car. So if you're paying $40 - $50 to fill your car thats' about $10 in electricity. Of course if you've got a 6 cylinder with some regular traffic driving you're probably much closer to 20mpg so you're at $15 vs $2 above. Pretty meaningful. (yes I'm ignoring other costs involved including setting up your house to charge a car and the additional cost for an electric car up front vs its gasoline peer)
bmelton 13y ago
I'll agree with that and add to it as well -- there's also the perception that powering up a whole car is an expensive endeavor. I can easily imagine that the cop who saw the guy plugged in probably saw dollars trickling from the wall, where a cell phone plugged in wouldn't seem as expensive. I feel like petty theft incidents like this for first-time offenders should be handled more delicately -- e.g., he can pay back the amount stolen, and perhaps a $50 court cost, but while I agree that jail seems excessive for the crime, there was indeed a crime committed, and perhaps illustrating to the officers that it was only 5 cents worth of crime would lessen the severity.

ZeroGravitas 13y ago

A closer analogy would be taking water from an outside tap, which again putting the value aside (even though it's much closer), people would be highly surprised to see someone arrested for theft of water and would actually think that outside taps in a public place might be intended to be used by the public who have access to the facilities.

001sky 13y ago
This is a good analogy. For reference, a Telsa Model S is like lining up 14,000 people to take a sip. An iPhone is one person.[1] So, in this case the issue is what happens when you exploit a social norm by 3x orders of magnitude? One the one hand its a "hack", on the other its "opportunistically, selfishly gaming the system". YMMV. [1] This is back of the envelope, 5.77wh vs 85kwhr.
- dkokelley 13y ago
  FYI, it was a Nissan Leaf according to the article, not a Tesla. The Leaf has a more modest 24 kWh battery. (So you're really only lining up ~4,000 people and only letting the first few hundred take a sip.)
- freehunter 13y ago
  I know people turn on the taps in schools and leave them running after they leave, letting the water flow uselessly while no one is there. My high school had plenty of broken urinals that were constantly running water, or had the plunger stuck down. Someone may get detention for that stunt, but never arrested.
bane 13y ago
Now lets say I put a small electric motor on that tap and turn it on for a few hours so I can charge my phone or a few days to charge my car? (don't think I didn't toy with the idea when I lived in an apartment with water included in the rent but not electricity).
- bananacurve 13y ago

001sky 13y ago

What is the diference between a car and an iPhone? I could very well see a kid charging his iPhone at soccer practice to call mom for a ride home (or whatever). The issue is a commercial grade of service vs an residential or amateur one. The behaviour (say, recharging your laptop at starbucks) is not inherently larceny ("theft of property") in terms of social norms. Or are you suggesting it should be?

mikeash 13y ago
I personally find it quite odd that we've normalized the behavior of plugging electronics into random electrical outlets not explicitly labeled for public use. Not that I haven't done my fair share of the same over the years (especially in airports), but it's strange just the same.
- cptskippy 13y ago
  I've always found it odd as well, so I was happy to see the terminals at a number of airports this summer all offering copious outlets for passengers to top-up devices.
- NickM 13y ago
  In most parts of the US it costs less than a tenth of a cent to charge an iPhone. I think it would be extremely rare that any business or organization would choose saving the minuscule cost of electricity over allowing people who need a charge to take one, so in practice it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume it's okay in most situations.
leephillips 13y ago
My wife will not plug in her iPhone to charge it at work. It all depends on your ethical standards. I, on the other hand, never thought twice about doing this. EDIT: Didn't think I would have to actually explain this, but here goes: the phone is for her personal use, unlike the computer, monitor, and other things on her desk supplied, along with the electricity, by her employer.
- 13y ago

makhanko 13y ago

I wonder if using outlet would be considered a fair use of the facilities. The car owner's son was playing tennis at the school which means he was given a permission to use the facility. If this is the case then using the parking lot, drinking fountain, water in the bathroom, light or electric outlet at the school should be considered a fair use unless there is something that indicates otherwise (like a no-parking sign)