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I predicted this might happen earlier this year (not that it's particularly hard to predict): "You could sabotage some Kickstarter projects by pledging a large

I predicted this might happen earlier this year (not that it's particularly hard to predict): "You could sabotage some Kickstarter projects by pledging a large amount then blacking out a minute before it ends." https://twitter.com/tlrobinson/status/305017672226205697 https://twitter.com/tlrobinson/status/305017672226205697 Interestingly, Bitcoin has features to make this sort of thing impossible, even without a trusted intermediary holding onto the funds: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Dominant_Assurance_Contracts https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Dominant_Assurance_Contracts https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_3:_Assurance_contracts https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_3:_Assurance_co...

jacques_chester 13y ago
I don't know if swapping easily-observed troll risk for impossible-to-predict currency exchange risk is a net win.
bbit 13y ago
Yes, I've seen people do that before. You can't do that with Bitcoins and crowdfunding. This platform does it now http://www.bitcoinstarter.com http://www.bitcoinstarter.com .
interstitial 13y ago
You can't back out in the last 24 hours if it takes a project under funding. Trust me, this isn't new and it's been debated in circles outside HN for a long while (I could list dozens of kicktrolled campaigns). The consensus is one of the reason Kickstarter is winning the crowdfunding game is it is possible to back out -- if they change that, they change the game. This gives consumers more freedom. But I think extra large amounts need new rules -- or just forbid them (as painful as that is).
- gavinballard 13y ago
  Perhaps an extra degree of verification for pledges beyond a certain value?
- bambax 13y ago
  Or allow campaigners to refuse pledges / backers? That would seem to be quite easy and also justified. Kickstarter is not a shop, it's a way to meet people who are interested in making you succeed; it would make a lot of sense if you could have a say in who you want to work with.
- PedroBatista 13y ago
  And therein lies the problem, these "consumers" are consuming what exactly? The pressure to please "consumers" is too strong, and this leads to putting all the risk on the "producers" side. Which means Kickstarter will be nothing more than a weird and sucky version of Amazon.
drjacobs 13y ago
Nice segue to bitcoin... if there were karma here you would get it Wouldn't Kickstarter just return bitcoins if the project was underfunded? Would fluctuations in price prevent this?
VMG 13y ago
You could even allow backing out and limit trolling by adding a small cost to back out. This works in the economic sense, not necessarily in the regulatory.
- johncampbelljr 13y ago
  This is an interesting idea. And if the fee to back-out is proportional to the pledge even better.
- speg 13y ago
  I don't see why not, you see it all the time in the real world. e.g., book a vacation with a X% non-refundable deposit.
- grecy 13y ago
  Good idea, but even the back-up fee is reversible on a credit card.
  - derefr 13y ago
    Require people to pay some amount to Kickstarter itself to buy a "large funding credit" (a virtual currency.) That credit must be spent, along with whatever actual donation you make, if you want to contribute over, say, $2000. The credits also don't "activate" until, say, six months after they're purchased--well outside of the (legitimate-vendor) chargeback window.
    - Anderkent 13y ago
      >The credits also don't "activate" until, say, six months after they're purchased--well outside of the (legitimate-vendor) chargeback window. Who'd buy kickstarter credit just to hope that in 6 months there would be an interesting project to support? The thing that wins kickstarter buyers over is the ease of supporting it. This would kill it.
dagw 13y ago
I think the price fluctuation is the biggest problem with bitcoins in this scenario. Let's say I need to pay my parts supplier $50000 in April, how many bitcoins should I ask for today, assuming the bitcoins will be transferred to me in February? Large companies struggle with this problem even when dealing with relatively stable currencies. Is there a functioning futures market for bitcoins yet?
- 001sky 13y ago
  Is there a functioning futures market for bitcoins yet? This is the classic solution for commodity price volatility. Both for real assets and currencies.

jacques_chester 13y ago

I don't know if swapping easily-observed troll risk for impossible-to-predict currency exchange risk is a net win.

bbit 13y ago

Yes, I've seen people do that before. You can't do that with Bitcoins and crowdfunding. This platform does it now http://www.bitcoinstarter.com http://www.bitcoinstarter.com .

interstitial 13y ago

You can't back out in the last 24 hours if it takes a project under funding. Trust me, this isn't new and it's been debated in circles outside HN for a long while (I could list dozens of kicktrolled campaigns). The consensus is one of the reason Kickstarter is winning the crowdfunding game is it is possible to back out -- if they change that, they change the game. This gives consumers more freedom. But I think extra large amounts need new rules -- or just forbid them (as painful as that is).

gavinballard 13y ago
Perhaps an extra degree of verification for pledges beyond a certain value?
bambax 13y ago
Or allow campaigners to refuse pledges / backers? That would seem to be quite easy and also justified. Kickstarter is not a shop, it's a way to meet people who are interested in making you succeed; it would make a lot of sense if you could have a say in who you want to work with.
PedroBatista 13y ago
And therein lies the problem, these "consumers" are consuming what exactly? The pressure to please "consumers" is too strong, and this leads to putting all the risk on the "producers" side. Which means Kickstarter will be nothing more than a weird and sucky version of Amazon.

drjacobs 13y ago

Nice segue to bitcoin... if there were karma here you would get it Wouldn't Kickstarter just return bitcoins if the project was underfunded? Would fluctuations in price prevent this?

VMG 13y ago

You could even allow backing out and limit trolling by adding a small cost to back out. This works in the economic sense, not necessarily in the regulatory.

johncampbelljr 13y ago
This is an interesting idea. And if the fee to back-out is proportional to the pledge even better.
speg 13y ago
I don't see why not, you see it all the time in the real world. e.g., book a vacation with a X% non-refundable deposit.
grecy 13y ago
Good idea, but even the back-up fee is reversible on a credit card.
- derefr 13y ago
  Require people to pay some amount to Kickstarter itself to buy a "large funding credit" (a virtual currency.) That credit must be spent, along with whatever actual donation you make, if you want to contribute over, say, $2000. The credits also don't "activate" until, say, six months after they're purchased--well outside of the (legitimate-vendor) chargeback window.
  - Anderkent 13y ago
    >The credits also don't "activate" until, say, six months after they're purchased--well outside of the (legitimate-vendor) chargeback window. Who'd buy kickstarter credit just to hope that in 6 months there would be an interesting project to support? The thing that wins kickstarter buyers over is the ease of supporting it. This would kill it.

dagw 13y ago

I think the price fluctuation is the biggest problem with bitcoins in this scenario. Let's say I need to pay my parts supplier $50000 in April, how many bitcoins should I ask for today, assuming the bitcoins will be transferred to me in February? Large companies struggle with this problem even when dealing with relatively stable currencies. Is there a functioning futures market for bitcoins yet?

001sky 13y ago
Is there a functioning futures market for bitcoins yet? This is the classic solution for commodity price volatility. Both for real assets and currencies.