3 ms·

I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree. This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad

I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree. This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad. They lack vocabularies and such that when they try to convey what they're doing or what they want other people to do or hell just to communicate with the team it takes a fucking long time and in the end might not even get anything done. They also want to get shit done without thinking about any other possible solutions or the consequences of their chosen solution. I've worked under one. From my imperfect memory, he basically ask to make the API to be as good as their competitor. When I ask more questions to clarify it. The said programmer got frustrated and threw a tantrum. Eventually, I found out the asshole, who lack soft skills, just wanted a async call methods in the api from client to the server. edit: added most, because I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

67726e 13y ago
That's the funny thing about anecdotes. You get to cherry-pick examples and make broad allegations from those cherry-picked examples. I'm a self-taught developer, and I've worked with plenty of "credentialed" developers that were either lazy as hell, having only gotten into software for the money, or were flat-out incompetent, again having only gotten into the industry for the money. That doesn't mean most folks with degrees are shit developers, it just means those ones were. I think the real difference between the good developers and the bad is more a result of "passion" for the field. If your only care is about getting the job and the salary that comes with it, you may very well spend a lot of time and effort getting to that point, but you probably won't go beyond that. On the other hand, the guys on my team, myself included, are all passionate. Now that doesn't mean "slaves away for ungodly hours" or even that they spend their time working on side-projects. The common-denominator is that we very much enjoy the line of work. We try to be "craftsmen" and not just a desk-bound office rats. Some jobs allow you to get to a point where you just don't have to put forth much effort unless you actively try to be the best. Software development/engineering/<term du jour> is not one of those fields.
- digitalzombie 13y ago
  Passion is abstract and it's harder to show. The degree is the best effort so far in our society that shows that someone is competance in their field.
  - nogbit 13y ago
    "is competance" or "has competence"? While it may be the best effort it surely is misguided. It's given people too much faith over the years in a system that is old and tired, dated and not meeting market demands (but aka opportunity for those working on a solution, yay!). I never finished my degree but instead I finished a ton of other projects, businesses and employment that has made me a ton of $$. And I would do it all over again for a fraction of that money because I go to bed at night (reluctantly) thinking about all the cool shit I get to build and program the next day. Passion is abstract, excitement is visible. If one day you are looking to hire someone and they don't have the academia creds but do have the experience and are pumped up about your company, team, product or project then give them a shot, you wont be disappointed!
encoderer 13y ago
I'll take gross generalizations and stereotypes for $1000, alex. Here's a thought: knowing and understanding concepts is more difficult than learning the lingo. Why not just, very respectfully and casually, insert the correct word into the discussion and help the guy pick this stuff up? It's called "teamwork" and it's really quite good at making work (and life) better. I've worked with too many guys with EE and CE and CS degrees that just totally fall down on the job to believe that a degree is the silver bullet of ignorance that you're suggesting. I think in reality it's about individual drive and intellectual appetite. But that's just my own observation.
- digitalzombie 13y ago
  >> knowing and understanding concepts is more difficult than learning the lingo. I don't believe knowing and understand goes hand in hand. Computer Science have tons of vocab. If you get rid of all of them then you mind as well spend the whole day doing nothing but describing all the absract concepts. The reason why we invent vocabulary is so we can ignore the lower nitty gritty details and talk on a higher level and focus on the problems we're trying to solve. I don't need to spend more than sentence or so to describe a singleton. I can just say hey I'm thinking that we should implementing a singleton because it's resource intensive. Instead hey, let's ensure that there is only one instance of this class because we don't need more than one instance. Even in that sentence, Instance is also a vocab of CS. >> to believe that a degree is the silver bullet of ignorance that you're suggesting. I'm not suggesting that this is the silver bullet. But this is an indication that a person have some competent to at least get a degree.

67726e 13y ago

That's the funny thing about anecdotes. You get to cherry-pick examples and make broad allegations from those cherry-picked examples. I'm a self-taught developer, and I've worked with plenty of "credentialed" developers that were either lazy as hell, having only gotten into software for the money, or were flat-out incompetent, again having only gotten into the industry for the money. That doesn't mean most folks with degrees are shit developers, it just means those ones were. I think the real difference between the good developers and the bad is more a result of "passion" for the field. If your only care is about getting the job and the salary that comes with it, you may very well spend a lot of time and effort getting to that point, but you probably won't go beyond that. On the other hand, the guys on my team, myself included, are all passionate. Now that doesn't mean "slaves away for ungodly hours" or even that they spend their time working on side-projects. The common-denominator is that we very much enjoy the line of work. We try to be "craftsmen" and not just a desk-bound office rats. Some jobs allow you to get to a point where you just don't have to put forth much effort unless you actively try to be the best. Software development/engineering/<term du jour> is not one of those fields.

digitalzombie 13y ago
Passion is abstract and it's harder to show. The degree is the best effort so far in our society that shows that someone is competance in their field.
- nogbit 13y ago
  "is competance" or "has competence"? While it may be the best effort it surely is misguided. It's given people too much faith over the years in a system that is old and tired, dated and not meeting market demands (but aka opportunity for those working on a solution, yay!). I never finished my degree but instead I finished a ton of other projects, businesses and employment that has made me a ton of $$. And I would do it all over again for a fraction of that money because I go to bed at night (reluctantly) thinking about all the cool shit I get to build and program the next day. Passion is abstract, excitement is visible. If one day you are looking to hire someone and they don't have the academia creds but do have the experience and are pumped up about your company, team, product or project then give them a shot, you wont be disappointed!

encoderer 13y ago

I'll take gross generalizations and stereotypes for $1000, alex. Here's a thought: knowing and understanding concepts is more difficult than learning the lingo. Why not just, very respectfully and casually, insert the correct word into the discussion and help the guy pick this stuff up? It's called "teamwork" and it's really quite good at making work (and life) better. I've worked with too many guys with EE and CE and CS degrees that just totally fall down on the job to believe that a degree is the silver bullet of ignorance that you're suggesting. I think in reality it's about individual drive and intellectual appetite. But that's just my own observation.

digitalzombie 13y ago
>> knowing and understanding concepts is more difficult than learning the lingo. I don't believe knowing and understand goes hand in hand. Computer Science have tons of vocab. If you get rid of all of them then you mind as well spend the whole day doing nothing but describing all the absract concepts. The reason why we invent vocabulary is so we can ignore the lower nitty gritty details and talk on a higher level and focus on the problems we're trying to solve. I don't need to spend more than sentence or so to describe a singleton. I can just say hey I'm thinking that we should implementing a singleton because it's resource intensive. Instead hey, let's ensure that there is only one instance of this class because we don't need more than one instance. Even in that sentence, Instance is also a vocab of CS. >> to believe that a degree is the silver bullet of ignorance that you're suggesting. I'm not suggesting that this is the silver bullet. But this is an indication that a person have some competent to at least get a degree.