7 ms·

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a jo

It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. We keep running into this problem where employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are. Part of that is impressed culturally, but more than anything we lack better methods of certification in most jobs. We need certification that matters, is widely accepted, and that employers actually trust. It has to be marketed well, and it has to actually produce graduates with up-to-date skills. It's not easy, especially in fields where curriculum must change yearly. Underlying all of this is a larger, unavoidable change taking place: the disappearance of unskilled work. Computers and machines are slowly taking over every unskilled job, starting at the least skilled and moving upwards to things we used to think of as skilled labor. Taxi drivers and factory workers will hardly exist in 10 years. Construction workers will only supervise machines in our lifetimes. Unless you want to work in a low-paying retail job for the rest of your life, you need to get a degree so you can work your way up some corporate ladder - or so the thinking goes.

wil421 13y ago
> It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. Yes and yes I wasted the first two years in college learning High School 2.0 and the last 2 learning technical concepts that people used 5-10 years ago. XHTML, CGI and using tables for layouts to name a few.
aantix 13y ago
I'm not sure why companies ever got away from the idea that they could avoid training employees? In Silicon Valley you see the same pool of startups competing for the same pool of Rails/Backbone.js developers all because they'd rather perceive to get a complete package up front. The apprenticeship model should be re-embraced.
- fleitz 13y ago
  Fixed costs, overhead, etc, etc. Training people is super expensive when you don't even know if your company will exist in 5 years. Generally, you don't want your DBA discovering the 3rd normal form halfway through a project.
  - jonjanzen 13y ago
    With the apprenticeship model you have a junior DBA working with a senior DBA who knows 3rd normal.
    - darkstar999 13y ago
      This assumes that you can afford a senior DBA and have time to deal with a junior. And the senior has teaching skills. And so on. I'm not sure apprenticeship works in some industries.
- encoderer 13y ago
  Because that model worked well when a person worked for a company for 10+ years -- and often an entire career. But now? It's a poor investment. Of course, this, like many factors, is both a cause and an effect of this more fluid labor market.
Houshalter 13y ago
I wonder if algorithmic hiring would improve this. That is companies using statistics to sort job applicants instead of just a human. Even on HN there has been discussion against this and people are scared of it but I think it would be an improvement over human biases. The statistics would quickly show that people with minimal or no education do almost as good, and are willing to work for less, and so they just hire them instead. Or maybe see that people from "lesser" universities are just as good as those from more prestigious ones. Maybe certification agencies would compete on the basis of how well their certification actually correlates with employee performance. Schools or training agencies could compete on a similar basis.
mortenjorck 13y ago
A major benefit of college is a baseline of domain knowledge that will serve you in your professional career, but indeed, that’s also a major benefit of a technical program. The real disconnect is that college is also (or at least is supposed to be, or has traditionally been) a schooling in the liberal arts. Four years spent learning to think critically about society and culture as well as one's area of specialization, and to express oneself in the marketplace of ideas. Which is just something many people don’t really care to do. And that’s fine. The problem is trying to get everyone interested in it, denying the fact that many lack interest and aptitude, and then diluting the experience for everyone while saddling the next generation with decades’ worth of debt.
- sounds 13y ago
  Yup. Where the grandparent said "employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are," you've highlighted the disconnect between what employers think they're getting from a college grad (certain skills) and what colleges actually do (teach students to think, to learn, to read). That's not High School 2.0. In fact, High School seems to be the right place for vocational training. It's the pinnacle of state-mandated schooling, and in fact includes vocational requirements. Some schools implement that as wood shop. Others focus so completely on teaching computer skills they become a "magnet school" for that one thing only. Unskilled work is disappearing and simultaneously employers are demanding more unskilled laborers. The work is disappearing because it's cheaper to have a machine do it flawlessly. The employers don't want skilled labor...labor versus capital all over again. For a while yet, it may be possible to become really skilled in computing and successfully straddle the divide: make enough money to be comfortable as a skilled laborer. But I think it would be wise for _colleges_ to cross-train all their Science/Engineering students in business. Colleges (traditionally) focus on the whole person. A person with business skills, connections, and potential funding becomes the new bar for entry. I'm always thankful my professors took the time to do that last part: take us (a team of students) into the real world.
  - WalterBright 13y ago
    While I took mostly STEM classes in college, I did also take a couple accounting classes. If you don't know the basics of double entry bookkeeping and the jargon that goes with it, you're a bit crippled when working in any sort of business.
cortesoft 13y ago
As a computer programmer, this really hasn't been my experience. I did not get a degree in a computer related field (have a BA in Philosophy), but have had no problems getting a job. I just showed the work I did for personal projects, and landed a job in weeks. I have since hired many developers, and I only look at education experience if there is nothing else that shows they can do the work. I have hired many people who never went to college at all.
- cheesylard 13y ago
  As a 19 year old programmer who just dropped out, this eases my anxiety. A lot.
  - MrFoof 13y ago
    I was you 12 years ago. The odds are still against you. You will lose opportunities due to credentialism. The best bet is to become better than your peers and be in the top 5% of the talent pool. When you work with someone who really knows their shit, shadow them. The better bet is to eventually go independent once you know you're more towards the top of the heap. Years ago, a McKinsey subsidiary ultimately ruled me out due to a lack of degree. Nowadays they're a customer and have no problem subcontracting me out, because "I run my own business" and a proven track record is just as sufficient as the degree they otherwise look for.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      I was you 12 years ago. And it's even worse now.
      - cheesylard 13y ago
        Wait, really? I was under the impression that a college degree for programmers is less important nowadays.
  - danudey 13y ago
    As a 31-year-old systems architect and software developer who dropped out of university: I realized that I had to choose between a degree I would enjoy that would be useless in getting me a job, and a degree that I would hate that would be useless in getting me a job. I wasn't cut out for EE or CS, and I didn't have the math marks to get in (and I didn't realize at the time that a lot of my problem was ADD-related). So… I left. In the end, I lucked my way through a succession of jobs, due in part to the fact that my chosen career, systems admin, doesn't really have a university career path leading to it, so my personal experience was worth as much as anyone else's. My recommendation: do lots of projects, contribute to open-source, put a bunch of personal projects up on github (and do them right; document them well and write good code), and apply to forward-thinking companies (startups, etc.). Show that you can do the work and no company worth their salt will care too much about how you learned it.
digitalzombie 13y ago
I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree. This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad. They lack vocabularies and such that when they try to convey what they're doing or what they want other people to do or hell just to communicate with the team it takes a fucking long time and in the end might not even get anything done. They also want to get shit done without thinking about any other possible solutions or the consequences of their chosen solution. I've worked under one. From my imperfect memory, he basically ask to make the API to be as good as their competitor. When I ask more questions to clarify it. The said programmer got frustrated and threw a tantrum. Eventually, I found out the asshole, who lack soft skills, just wanted a async call methods in the api from client to the server. edit: added most, because I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.
- 67726e 13y ago
  That's the funny thing about anecdotes. You get to cherry-pick examples and make broad allegations from those cherry-picked examples. I'm a self-taught developer, and I've worked with plenty of "credentialed" developers that were either lazy as hell, having only gotten into software for the money, or were flat-out incompetent, again having only gotten into the industry for the money. That doesn't mean most folks with degrees are shit developers, it just means those ones were. I think the real difference between the good developers and the bad is more a result of "passion" for the field. If your only care is about getting the job and the salary that comes with it, you may very well spend a lot of time and effort getting to that point, but you probably won't go beyond that. On the other hand, the guys on my team, myself included, are all passionate. Now that doesn't mean "slaves away for ungodly hours" or even that they spend their time working on side-projects. The common-denominator is that we very much enjoy the line of work. We try to be "craftsmen" and not just a desk-bound office rats. Some jobs allow you to get to a point where you just don't have to put forth much effort unless you actively try to be the best. Software development/engineering/<term du jour> is not one of those fields.
  - digitalzombie 13y ago
    Passion is abstract and it's harder to show. The degree is the best effort so far in our society that shows that someone is competance in their field.
WalterBright 13y ago
> My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke I'm sorry for you. My college experience was very valuable to me (not for the diploma, nobody cares about my diploma, least of all me). I learned a great deal about how to solve problems, how to figure out what was important, how to separate truth from crap, how to learn, and the confidence that I can do it. Caltech's honor system has also been very formative for me and I've applied it since then with considerable success. The more I hear about other peoples' college experiences, the more I appreciate how lucky I was to wind up at Caltech.
- googlemployee1 13y ago
  I went to Caltech and worked at the JPL prior to going to Google. I can't say my time at Caltech was particularly worthwhile in terms of what I gained.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

wil421 13y ago

> It's a joke among engineers that you need to graduate from college so that you can start learning. My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke, period - high school 2.0. Still, I wouldn't have the good job I do now if I hadn't completed my degree. Yes and yes I wasted the first two years in college learning High School 2.0 and the last 2 learning technical concepts that people used 5-10 years ago. XHTML, CGI and using tables for layouts to name a few.

aantix 13y ago

I'm not sure why companies ever got away from the idea that they could avoid training employees? In Silicon Valley you see the same pool of startups competing for the same pool of Rails/Backbone.js developers all because they'd rather perceive to get a complete package up front. The apprenticeship model should be re-embraced.

fleitz 13y ago
Fixed costs, overhead, etc, etc. Training people is super expensive when you don't even know if your company will exist in 5 years. Generally, you don't want your DBA discovering the 3rd normal form halfway through a project.
- jonjanzen 13y ago
  With the apprenticeship model you have a junior DBA working with a senior DBA who knows 3rd normal.
  - darkstar999 13y ago
    This assumes that you can afford a senior DBA and have time to deal with a junior. And the senior has teaching skills. And so on. I'm not sure apprenticeship works in some industries.
encoderer 13y ago
Because that model worked well when a person worked for a company for 10+ years -- and often an entire career. But now? It's a poor investment. Of course, this, like many factors, is both a cause and an effect of this more fluid labor market.

Houshalter 13y ago

I wonder if algorithmic hiring would improve this. That is companies using statistics to sort job applicants instead of just a human. Even on HN there has been discussion against this and people are scared of it but I think it would be an improvement over human biases. The statistics would quickly show that people with minimal or no education do almost as good, and are willing to work for less, and so they just hire them instead. Or maybe see that people from "lesser" universities are just as good as those from more prestigious ones. Maybe certification agencies would compete on the basis of how well their certification actually correlates with employee performance. Schools or training agencies could compete on a similar basis.

mortenjorck 13y ago

A major benefit of college is a baseline of domain knowledge that will serve you in your professional career, but indeed, that’s also a major benefit of a technical program. The real disconnect is that college is also (or at least is supposed to be, or has traditionally been) a schooling in the liberal arts. Four years spent learning to think critically about society and culture as well as one's area of specialization, and to express oneself in the marketplace of ideas. Which is just something many people don’t really care to do. And that’s fine. The problem is trying to get everyone interested in it, denying the fact that many lack interest and aptitude, and then diluting the experience for everyone while saddling the next generation with decades’ worth of debt.

sounds 13y ago
Yup. Where the grandparent said "employers think college degrees are more valuable than they probably are," you've highlighted the disconnect between what employers think they're getting from a college grad (certain skills) and what colleges actually do (teach students to think, to learn, to read). That's not High School 2.0. In fact, High School seems to be the right place for vocational training. It's the pinnacle of state-mandated schooling, and in fact includes vocational requirements. Some schools implement that as wood shop. Others focus so completely on teaching computer skills they become a "magnet school" for that one thing only. Unskilled work is disappearing and simultaneously employers are demanding more unskilled laborers. The work is disappearing because it's cheaper to have a machine do it flawlessly. The employers don't want skilled labor...labor versus capital all over again. For a while yet, it may be possible to become really skilled in computing and successfully straddle the divide: make enough money to be comfortable as a skilled laborer. But I think it would be wise for _colleges_ to cross-train all their Science/Engineering students in business. Colleges (traditionally) focus on the whole person. A person with business skills, connections, and potential funding becomes the new bar for entry. I'm always thankful my professors took the time to do that last part: take us (a team of students) into the real world.
- WalterBright 13y ago
  While I took mostly STEM classes in college, I did also take a couple accounting classes. If you don't know the basics of double entry bookkeeping and the jargon that goes with it, you're a bit crippled when working in any sort of business.

cortesoft 13y ago

As a computer programmer, this really hasn't been my experience. I did not get a degree in a computer related field (have a BA in Philosophy), but have had no problems getting a job. I just showed the work I did for personal projects, and landed a job in weeks. I have since hired many developers, and I only look at education experience if there is nothing else that shows they can do the work. I have hired many people who never went to college at all.

cheesylard 13y ago
As a 19 year old programmer who just dropped out, this eases my anxiety. A lot.
- MrFoof 13y ago
  I was you 12 years ago. The odds are still against you. You will lose opportunities due to credentialism. The best bet is to become better than your peers and be in the top 5% of the talent pool. When you work with someone who really knows their shit, shadow them. The better bet is to eventually go independent once you know you're more towards the top of the heap. Years ago, a McKinsey subsidiary ultimately ruled me out due to a lack of degree. Nowadays they're a customer and have no problem subcontracting me out, because "I run my own business" and a proven track record is just as sufficient as the degree they otherwise look for.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    I was you 12 years ago. And it's even worse now.
    - cheesylard 13y ago
      Wait, really? I was under the impression that a college degree for programmers is less important nowadays.
- danudey 13y ago
  As a 31-year-old systems architect and software developer who dropped out of university: I realized that I had to choose between a degree I would enjoy that would be useless in getting me a job, and a degree that I would hate that would be useless in getting me a job. I wasn't cut out for EE or CS, and I didn't have the math marks to get in (and I didn't realize at the time that a lot of my problem was ADD-related). So… I left. In the end, I lucked my way through a succession of jobs, due in part to the fact that my chosen career, systems admin, doesn't really have a university career path leading to it, so my personal experience was worth as much as anyone else's. My recommendation: do lots of projects, contribute to open-source, put a bunch of personal projects up on github (and do them right; document them well and write good code), and apply to forward-thinking companies (startups, etc.). Show that you can do the work and no company worth their salt will care too much about how you learned it.

digitalzombie 13y ago

I've seen, heard stories of, and worked with the self taught programmers out there with out the degree. This is base on my experience, but most of them are bad. They lack vocabularies and such that when they try to convey what they're doing or what they want other people to do or hell just to communicate with the team it takes a fucking long time and in the end might not even get anything done. They also want to get shit done without thinking about any other possible solutions or the consequences of their chosen solution. I've worked under one. From my imperfect memory, he basically ask to make the API to be as good as their competitor. When I ask more questions to clarify it. The said programmer got frustrated and threw a tantrum. Eventually, I found out the asshole, who lack soft skills, just wanted a async call methods in the api from client to the server. edit: added most, because I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there.

67726e 13y ago
That's the funny thing about anecdotes. You get to cherry-pick examples and make broad allegations from those cherry-picked examples. I'm a self-taught developer, and I've worked with plenty of "credentialed" developers that were either lazy as hell, having only gotten into software for the money, or were flat-out incompetent, again having only gotten into the industry for the money. That doesn't mean most folks with degrees are shit developers, it just means those ones were. I think the real difference between the good developers and the bad is more a result of "passion" for the field. If your only care is about getting the job and the salary that comes with it, you may very well spend a lot of time and effort getting to that point, but you probably won't go beyond that. On the other hand, the guys on my team, myself included, are all passionate. Now that doesn't mean "slaves away for ungodly hours" or even that they spend their time working on side-projects. The common-denominator is that we very much enjoy the line of work. We try to be "craftsmen" and not just a desk-bound office rats. Some jobs allow you to get to a point where you just don't have to put forth much effort unless you actively try to be the best. Software development/engineering/<term du jour> is not one of those fields.
- digitalzombie 13y ago
  Passion is abstract and it's harder to show. The degree is the best effort so far in our society that shows that someone is competance in their field.

WalterBright 13y ago

> My college experience (non-technical bachelors) was just a joke I'm sorry for you. My college experience was very valuable to me (not for the diploma, nobody cares about my diploma, least of all me). I learned a great deal about how to solve problems, how to figure out what was important, how to separate truth from crap, how to learn, and the confidence that I can do it. Caltech's honor system has also been very formative for me and I've applied it since then with considerable success. The more I hear about other peoples' college experiences, the more I appreciate how lucky I was to wind up at Caltech.

googlemployee1 13y ago
I went to Caltech and worked at the JPL prior to going to Google. I can't say my time at Caltech was particularly worthwhile in terms of what I gained.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]