4 ms·

Curious, what or who do you consider to be genius?

dsirijus 13y ago
People being able to create accurate and novel mental models of reality of a large scope. And I'm already throwing up a defense stating that rearranging furniture is not that. Added 'of a large scope' in edit to power up my defense. As a side note, I value even more geniuses that make models of the process of modelling. Meta-geniuses, so to speak. Not many of those though. One needs only to see into our progress concerning artificial intelligence to confirm that. EDIT: I'm curious about something else... Sentences starting with "I'm curious" usually present an attack in a form of preparation for the punchline upon the expected answer. Not a general rule, but I'm usually right interpreting them as such in both cyber and real world. Was yours one? What did you think I was to answer? If 'yes', what was the presupposed killer line or were you to improvise? Was it premeditated at all? I am genuinely curious. :)
- acoyfellow 13y ago
  Sorry if how I wrote seemed like a jab, it was more like a quick thought. It was intended to stir discussion not to pick a fight :) I'm not sure if I even know what it means to be a genius, in literal terms. I use the word "genius" all the time, and your reply made me think about how generously I use it.
- uniclaude 13y ago
  Not that I dismiss your definition, but it requires me to stretch my mind a lot to see Mozart as someone "able to create accurate and novel mental models of reality of a large scope", so either I don't get it yet, or you wouldn't consider him a genius. About your parent post, maybe the poster was simply trying to start a constructive discussion. It is HN, after all.
  - resu_nimda 13y ago
    I was thinking about how I would answer the original question (how to define genius, essentially), invoking names like Einstein, Aristotle, Turing, etc. I was wondering if I felt that some concept of synthesizing "new knowledge" was a necessary component. I thought, "I would hesitate to label an artist as a genius," then I specifically thought of classical composers. Then I refreshed and saw your post :) As a programmer and lifelong STEM person, I could be biased. Even though I hold that everything is subjective, it's a spectrum and art is just so subjective. How do you even begin to quantify the level of genius of a musical composition?
  - dsirijus 13y ago
    While I'm familiar with Mozart's works, I'm not familiar with the spirit of the age, so it's hard to judge. From what I know, he was well trained from early childhood, had talent to boot, and lucky enough to end up composing on the court. Being a workaholic helped too. I'm almost refraining from making a judgement, but if I had to force it - no, he's no genius in my book. Once again, I really could be right as well as wrong about that. That doesn't prevent me from having a pet hypothesis that him, being labeled as prodigy right off the bat, got him into a situation where he was allowed to compose tunes that would appeal to many, as opposed to your generic court composer, who bows to kings wishes. Which is a sort of little revolution right there - court approved pop music. For all I know, he's the 18th century's Lady Gaga. But not to stop your point right there, I can say that Frank Zappa would qualify as genius for me. I can really follow his music and feel his firm grasp of rhythmic patterns along different sections as well as his control of general timbre. He even called his process of music composing/performing as "sculpting the air". I can sense him creating a quite literal model of reality right there. And, unlike for Mozart, I kind of have much more information about the current state of the matter when Zappa came in. Amongst other musicians I consider genius - Iannis Xenakis, Arnold Schoenberg, John Cage, Edgard Varèse... You'll find them usually labeled as experimental or avant-garde. Many quacks in that genre though.
    - hamai 13y ago
      Mozart's symphonic works alone are more complex than what Gaga does. Take the 40th, the harmonies, the transitions, the sheer beauty of it. Despite the huge technical challenges of composing for a Symphony, still add that much beauty to it. And then there are vocal works, Opera, chamber groups... He was a huge influence on Beethoven, and a couple other cats... Mozart beats Gaga in complexity and inspiration. I feel funny having actually typed this comment...
- billmalarky 13y ago
  Questions starting with the word curious are often interpreted as an attack? I'd better stop my habit of beginning every question with that word...

People being able to create accurate and novel mental models of reality of a large scope. And I'm already throwing up a defense stating that rearranging furniture is not that. Added 'of a large scope' in edit to power up my defense. As a side note, I value even more geniuses that make models of the process of modelling. Meta-geniuses, so to speak. Not many of those though. One needs only to see into our progress concerning artificial intelligence to confirm that. EDIT: I'm curious about something else... Sentences starting with "I'm curious" usually present an attack in a form of preparation for the punchline upon the expected answer. Not a general rule, but I'm usually right interpreting them as such in both cyber and real world. Was yours one? What did you think I was to answer? If 'yes', what was the presupposed killer line or were you to improvise? Was it premeditated at all? I am genuinely curious. :)

acoyfellow 13y ago
Sorry if how I wrote seemed like a jab, it was more like a quick thought. It was intended to stir discussion not to pick a fight :) I'm not sure if I even know what it means to be a genius, in literal terms. I use the word "genius" all the time, and your reply made me think about how generously I use it.
uniclaude 13y ago
Not that I dismiss your definition, but it requires me to stretch my mind a lot to see Mozart as someone "able to create accurate and novel mental models of reality of a large scope", so either I don't get it yet, or you wouldn't consider him a genius. About your parent post, maybe the poster was simply trying to start a constructive discussion. It is HN, after all.
- resu_nimda 13y ago
  I was thinking about how I would answer the original question (how to define genius, essentially), invoking names like Einstein, Aristotle, Turing, etc. I was wondering if I felt that some concept of synthesizing "new knowledge" was a necessary component. I thought, "I would hesitate to label an artist as a genius," then I specifically thought of classical composers. Then I refreshed and saw your post :) As a programmer and lifelong STEM person, I could be biased. Even though I hold that everything is subjective, it's a spectrum and art is just so subjective. How do you even begin to quantify the level of genius of a musical composition?
- dsirijus 13y ago
  While I'm familiar with Mozart's works, I'm not familiar with the spirit of the age, so it's hard to judge. From what I know, he was well trained from early childhood, had talent to boot, and lucky enough to end up composing on the court. Being a workaholic helped too. I'm almost refraining from making a judgement, but if I had to force it - no, he's no genius in my book. Once again, I really could be right as well as wrong about that. That doesn't prevent me from having a pet hypothesis that him, being labeled as prodigy right off the bat, got him into a situation where he was allowed to compose tunes that would appeal to many, as opposed to your generic court composer, who bows to kings wishes. Which is a sort of little revolution right there - court approved pop music. For all I know, he's the 18th century's Lady Gaga. But not to stop your point right there, I can say that Frank Zappa would qualify as genius for me. I can really follow his music and feel his firm grasp of rhythmic patterns along different sections as well as his control of general timbre. He even called his process of music composing/performing as "sculpting the air". I can sense him creating a quite literal model of reality right there. And, unlike for Mozart, I kind of have much more information about the current state of the matter when Zappa came in. Amongst other musicians I consider genius - Iannis Xenakis, Arnold Schoenberg, John Cage, Edgard Varèse... You'll find them usually labeled as experimental or avant-garde. Many quacks in that genre though.
  - hamai 13y ago
    Mozart's symphonic works alone are more complex than what Gaga does. Take the 40th, the harmonies, the transitions, the sheer beauty of it. Despite the huge technical challenges of composing for a Symphony, still add that much beauty to it. And then there are vocal works, Opera, chamber groups... He was a huge influence on Beethoven, and a couple other cats... Mozart beats Gaga in complexity and inspiration. I feel funny having actually typed this comment...
billmalarky 13y ago
Questions starting with the word curious are often interpreted as an attack? I'd better stop my habit of beginning every question with that word...