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But do they have to limit fuel. Does the advantage of the turbo outweigh more pitstops? I'm afraid races might get boring when drivers will have to conserve th

by deletes 13y ago

But do they have to limit fuel. Does the advantage of the turbo outweigh more pitstops? I'm afraid races might get boring when drivers will have to conserve their fuel or just lose the race.

maigret 13y ago
It's already the case. You cannot refuel (I think for safety reasons, but not sure), so to get a weight advantage you have to take as little fuel as possible at the beginning of the race. So I don't expect changes. And yes, it happened to some, like Hamilton, to have to drive slower to save fuel. http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/21917717 http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/21917717
- fredwilkins 13y ago
  In race refueling has been banned since 2010. Their concern was with the increasing number of fuel related pit row accidents. But on the flip side, many argue that operating with the increased fuel loads is even more dangerous.
- masklinn 13y ago
  > You cannot refuel (I think for safety reasons, but not sure) Definitely not safety reasons. Refueling on pit stops was allowed from 1994 to 2009 (inclusive). The official reason for refueling ban was lowering team expenses: refueling stops required significant machinery, equipment and crew (much more so than calibration and tyres changes), which had to be carried around the world.
collyw 13y ago
Cars going round in circles? I already find that fairly boring.
- hudster 13y ago
  Circles? That's Nascar
  - dagw 13y ago
    They're all topologically equivalent
    - DanWaterworth 13y ago
      It may well be the case that they are all topologically equivalent, but they needn't be, so long as bridges are allowed. Perhaps that's how they could make F1 more interesting.
      - alexkus 13y ago
        Suzuka has a bridge:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuka_Circuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuka_Circuit
        DanWaterworth 13y ago
        Unfortunately, the presence of a bridge is necessary, but not sufficient. Think knots.
    - beat 13y ago
      In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Even circle tracks have tremendous local variation from a racing point of view.
- cjrp 13y ago
  I used to think it was dull, but then I read up on the aerodynamic and engineering work that goes into each car's design and suddenly it became a lot more interesting.
- Iuz 13y ago
  Formula 1 is street circuits.
- forgottenpaswrd 13y ago
  That's NASCAR, not F1. In F1 you see real cars, doing real curves, not the thing NASCAR does like having a car that only could turn one way. In F1 you see cars going through the streets of Monaco or Valencia, or German circuits that you could race yourself with your own car. BTW I do it.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    NASCAR has road tracks so stop the stupid and tell the truth. I like NASCAR because F1 feels too teched up and NASCAR doesn't even give the driver a fuel gauge or speedometer. Plus all that weight and those small breaks. And just to stop another stereotype, I hate wrecks and cautions and I haven't met anyone who does. NASCAR is also the most fan friendly sport with a huge amount of fan interaction with the drivers and cars. NASCAR fans can even go on the actual track in training vehicles.
    - jrockway 13y ago
      > stop the stupid and tell the truth Be nice.
      - protomyth 13y ago
        I'm just sick of folks repeating that same tired argument, much like most Linux / BSD people being told that neither can be used as a desktop machine. It gets old and you just know the person saying it is much smarter than that.
    - oijaf888 13y ago
      Not very many NASCAR tracks are road tracks, looks like 5 out of 29. I don't believe NASCAR has ever (or at least in the past decade or so) raced an actual street course though. E.g. similar to the Monaco GP, Montreal GP or for ALMS, Baltimore GP. Isn't the lack of fuel gauges more due to them being inaccurate if you are at a 30 degree slant and back to level? I believe they use fuel pressure gauges to indicate if they are running out of fuel.
- bliti 13y ago
  You should give the WRC series a good look. Here is Round 8 in Finland of the 2013 season. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82FgaYyXYwE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82FgaYyXYwE
philjohn 13y ago
There's something in the rules about maximum fuel flow rate, which IIRC is 100kg of fuel per hour, with a maximum of 100kg of fuel in the tank, so the trick has been to make these engines as efficient as possible, it's no use having the most powerful engine if if can't reach it's full capability, or can only reach it when it's using the max fuel flow rate as you'll run out having only completed half the lap.
exDM69 13y ago
> But do they have to limit fuel. Does the advantage of the turbo outweigh more pitstops? Refueling is not allowed in Formula 1, it has only been allowed during two brief stints in the early 1980s and late 1990s. It was/is silly dangerous and there were a few quite nasty pitstop fire incidents. One goal of the new regulations with the turbo, the regenerative braking and the fuel limit is to put emphasis on the efficiency of the engines. The engine manufacturer with the best efficiency is at an advantage. There's a risk that this will introduce boring fuel saving periods to races. But on the other hand the fuel limit is the same for everyone. If you look at this from a different perspective, there will periods where you can crank up the boost and mixture to allow for more power at the cost of more than average fuel consumption.
- masklinn 13y ago
  > Refueling is not allowed in Formula 1, it has only been allowed during two brief stints in the early 1980s and late 1990s. Brief? It was allowed from 1994 to 2009, and the official reason for removing it in 2010 was team expenses (they had to move expensive speed-refueling machinery around the world, and highly trained pit staff to match)
  - exDM69 13y ago
    Brief in the sense that for most of the history of F1, refueling has not been allowed.
    - jackgavigan 13y ago
      That's not strictly true. Refuelling was allowed (or, more accurately, it wasn't banned) from 1950 (the first F1 world championship) thru 1983. Fangio did a deliberate pitstop during his famous win at the Nürburgring in 1957 [1]. However, it appears that it wasn't until 1983 that a team (Brabham) deliberately built a car with a tank too small to hold enough fuel to finish a race [2]. Brabham went on to win the 1983 championship and refuelling was banned from 1984. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_German_Grand_Prix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_German_Grand_Prix [2]: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/refueling.html http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/refueling.html
vanderZwan 13y ago
Life... I mean the need for speed will find a way. I'm quite excited by this, can't wait to see what innovations will come out of the new restrictions!

by deletes 13y ago

But do they have to limit fuel. Does the advantage of the turbo outweigh more pitstops? I'm afraid races might get boring when drivers will have to conserve their fuel or just lose the race.

maigret 13y ago

It's already the case. You cannot refuel (I think for safety reasons, but not sure), so to get a weight advantage you have to take as little fuel as possible at the beginning of the race. So I don't expect changes. And yes, it happened to some, like Hamilton, to have to drive slower to save fuel. http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/21917717 http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/21917717

fredwilkins 13y ago
In race refueling has been banned since 2010. Their concern was with the increasing number of fuel related pit row accidents. But on the flip side, many argue that operating with the increased fuel loads is even more dangerous.
masklinn 13y ago
> You cannot refuel (I think for safety reasons, but not sure) Definitely not safety reasons. Refueling on pit stops was allowed from 1994 to 2009 (inclusive). The official reason for refueling ban was lowering team expenses: refueling stops required significant machinery, equipment and crew (much more so than calibration and tyres changes), which had to be carried around the world.

collyw 13y ago

Cars going round in circles? I already find that fairly boring.

hudster 13y ago
Circles? That's Nascar
- dagw 13y ago
  They're all topologically equivalent
  - DanWaterworth 13y ago
    It may well be the case that they are all topologically equivalent, but they needn't be, so long as bridges are allowed. Perhaps that's how they could make F1 more interesting.
    - alexkus 13y ago
      Suzuka has a bridge:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuka_Circuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuka_Circuit
      - DanWaterworth 13y ago
        Unfortunately, the presence of a bridge is necessary, but not sufficient. Think knots.
  - beat 13y ago
    In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not. Even circle tracks have tremendous local variation from a racing point of view.
cjrp 13y ago
I used to think it was dull, but then I read up on the aerodynamic and engineering work that goes into each car's design and suddenly it became a lot more interesting.
Iuz 13y ago
Formula 1 is street circuits.
forgottenpaswrd 13y ago
That's NASCAR, not F1. In F1 you see real cars, doing real curves, not the thing NASCAR does like having a car that only could turn one way. In F1 you see cars going through the streets of Monaco or Valencia, or German circuits that you could race yourself with your own car. BTW I do it.
- protomyth 13y ago
  NASCAR has road tracks so stop the stupid and tell the truth. I like NASCAR because F1 feels too teched up and NASCAR doesn't even give the driver a fuel gauge or speedometer. Plus all that weight and those small breaks. And just to stop another stereotype, I hate wrecks and cautions and I haven't met anyone who does. NASCAR is also the most fan friendly sport with a huge amount of fan interaction with the drivers and cars. NASCAR fans can even go on the actual track in training vehicles.
  - jrockway 13y ago
    > stop the stupid and tell the truth Be nice.
    - protomyth 13y ago
      I'm just sick of folks repeating that same tired argument, much like most Linux / BSD people being told that neither can be used as a desktop machine. It gets old and you just know the person saying it is much smarter than that.
  - oijaf888 13y ago
    Not very many NASCAR tracks are road tracks, looks like 5 out of 29. I don't believe NASCAR has ever (or at least in the past decade or so) raced an actual street course though. E.g. similar to the Monaco GP, Montreal GP or for ALMS, Baltimore GP. Isn't the lack of fuel gauges more due to them being inaccurate if you are at a 30 degree slant and back to level? I believe they use fuel pressure gauges to indicate if they are running out of fuel.
bliti 13y ago
You should give the WRC series a good look. Here is Round 8 in Finland of the 2013 season. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82FgaYyXYwE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82FgaYyXYwE

philjohn 13y ago

There's something in the rules about maximum fuel flow rate, which IIRC is 100kg of fuel per hour, with a maximum of 100kg of fuel in the tank, so the trick has been to make these engines as efficient as possible, it's no use having the most powerful engine if if can't reach it's full capability, or can only reach it when it's using the max fuel flow rate as you'll run out having only completed half the lap.

exDM69 13y ago

> But do they have to limit fuel. Does the advantage of the turbo outweigh more pitstops? Refueling is not allowed in Formula 1, it has only been allowed during two brief stints in the early 1980s and late 1990s. It was/is silly dangerous and there were a few quite nasty pitstop fire incidents. One goal of the new regulations with the turbo, the regenerative braking and the fuel limit is to put emphasis on the efficiency of the engines. The engine manufacturer with the best efficiency is at an advantage. There's a risk that this will introduce boring fuel saving periods to races. But on the other hand the fuel limit is the same for everyone. If you look at this from a different perspective, there will periods where you can crank up the boost and mixture to allow for more power at the cost of more than average fuel consumption.

masklinn 13y ago
> Refueling is not allowed in Formula 1, it has only been allowed during two brief stints in the early 1980s and late 1990s. Brief? It was allowed from 1994 to 2009, and the official reason for removing it in 2010 was team expenses (they had to move expensive speed-refueling machinery around the world, and highly trained pit staff to match)
- exDM69 13y ago
  Brief in the sense that for most of the history of F1, refueling has not been allowed.
  - jackgavigan 13y ago
    That's not strictly true. Refuelling was allowed (or, more accurately, it wasn't banned) from 1950 (the first F1 world championship) thru 1983. Fangio did a deliberate pitstop during his famous win at the Nürburgring in 1957 [1]. However, it appears that it wasn't until 1983 that a team (Brabham) deliberately built a car with a tank too small to hold enough fuel to finish a race [2]. Brabham went on to win the 1983 championship and refuelling was banned from 1984. [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_German_Grand_Prix http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_German_Grand_Prix [2]: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/refueling.html http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/refueling.html

vanderZwan 13y ago

Life... I mean the need for speed will find a way. I'm quite excited by this, can't wait to see what innovations will come out of the new restrictions!