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Definitely not a dumb question, this is what immediately jumped into my head too. I imagine it's very difficult to get an answer to this. A controlled experimen
by steveridout 13y ago
Definitely not a dumb question, this is what immediately jumped into my head too. I imagine it's very difficult to get an answer to this. A controlled experiment is obviously impossible, but perhaps comparing results from a diverse range of cultures around the world could give a clue.
- V-2 13y agoA 100% proper controlled experiment with double blinding etc. is not possible, perhaps, but there are transgender children who often are raised as if they were of their physical sex, which obviously causes them to suffer. I always wondered - if it's purely a social construct that boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls etc., then why in most stories about a girl trapped in a boy's body we hear her say "I wanted to play with girls" (contrary to society's expectations), "I wanted to play with dolls" etc.? I googled it up just now - http://prospect.org/article/transgender-candidate http://prospect.org/article/transgender-candidate The story of Bindaya Rana (from Pakistani), who was born as a male: "Bindiya Rana, one of Pakistan’s first transgender candidates [...] “I used to wear my sister’s clothes,” she said. “And use lipstick and powder and nail polish. I wanted to play with dolls and be in the kitchen.” Her parents disapproved when they found her in makeup, beating her." It's a gaping hole in the theory that we are wired differently "as we grow up due to the different experiences and upbringing men and women are subject to". If one's self-identified gender could be overriden so easily, there would me much less personal tragedies in this world.
- knowitall 13y agoI seriously doubt preferences for lipstick and nail polish are genetic. For most of human evolution, there were no such things around.
- icebraining 13y agoWell, one could have genetic differences that lead to those preferences; it doesn't have to be an encoded preference for a particular type of object. For example, a genetic predisposition towards competition and physical activity could lead to a general preference for certain kinds of sports, even if those didn't exist for most of human evolution. In case you haven't noticed, I'm talking out of my ass here, I have no idea if this is true, it just seems a reasonable possibility.
- V-2 13y agoYes, and similarly the fear of falling off the roof of a tall building can't be genetic at all, given that for most of human evolution there were no skyscrapers around :)
- knowitall 13y agoSeriously? Monkeys live on trees... Mountains exist for longer than humans.
- spuz 13y agoHis point is not that fear of falling is learnt by visiting tall buildings but that the logic of his argument is the same as yours. If you can find the flaw in his argument then you should be able to find the flaw in your own.
- knowitall 13y agoHelp me out then, because I don't see it? A fall is deadly, whether you fall from a skyscraper or a tree. You mean there might have been something else like nail polish, and people evolved a preference for that? But what would that have been? Some meshed up leaves people put on their finger nails? Apparently there is something like a preference for being a woman, and using nail polish can be a proxy for that. But my point is that it is most likely learned that nail polish has something to do with being a woman. And the mechanism is not "I wish I was a woman so that I could use nail polish", it is more likely "I wish I could be a woman, and nail polish makes me feel like one". Nevertheless, I am also not a biologist, just making things up. But I think some basic logic can be applied by everyone.
- tomp 13y agoNail polish -> healthy nails -> healthy body -> lots of resources & good genetics. Lipstick -> red lips -> sexual symbol (looks similar to vaginal labia) -> more reproductive choice
- nailer 13y agoMany species have gender based preening habits, either male of female. It doesn't seem surprising that humans may do the same.
- knowitall 13y agoMaybe, but my point is that lipstick and nail polish are very likely learned preferences. Perhaps there is some mechanism by which a child picks the people it learns it's preferences from. I've read for example that kids learn their beauty ideals from the people that surround them, but there is also a taboo to not fall in love with closely related people. For example researchers looked at people living in a Kibuz and found that there were hardly any love affairs among them.
- nailer 13y agoI think it's a learned /expression/ of reproductive signalling. I think of lipstick as just a human equivalent of a monkey with a big red butt (which is natural, but doesn't serve any purpose other than to let other monkeys know they're in heat). They're human ways of drawing attention to sexuality. In our society we can't paint our genitals, so we paint another set of lips. Or our fingernails, etc. When a child picks lipstick, however, they're not being sexual, just emulating adults. They same way they copy adults tone (ever heard a kid 'scold' another kid, the same way their parents would?) Most infant animals do that too.
- frooxie 13y agoI'm not going to argue for a genetic preference for lipstick and nail polish, but in the case of trucks and dolls, that could plausibly be based on differing genetic preferences for, say, Large Moving Things vs Human Interaction, or something, despite trucks and dolls not having been around for long.
- icebraining 13y agoI always wondered - if it's purely a social construct that boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls etc., then why in most stories about a girl trapped in a boy's body we hear her say "I wanted to play with girls" (contrary to society's expectations), "I wanted to play with dolls" etc.? Possibly because they identify themselves with other girls, and are more susceptible to the same influences? If society expects a certain gender as a whole to behave in a certain way, and an individual identifies with that gender, then it's not odd that it may be influenced as well. Not that I have no idea if this is true or not, I just find that an unconvincing argument against the social construct theory.
- V-2 13y agoI never said that it by itself invalidates the theory altogether :) If someone puts a theory forward, however, it's their job to come up with plausible answers for such doubts. The one you suggested is possible, of course. How well substantiated it is though? Theories should include some evidence that supports the hypotheses they are based on.
- knowitall 13y agoWell there is the case of ducklings, who think the first thing they see after leaving the egg shell is their mother. So if you are there instead of their real mother, they'll follow you around until they become independent. Just to show an example where some preference is not genetic, but there is a mechanism to pretty much hardwire it shortly after birth.
- knowitall 13y agoWhat would you say does "I want to be a woman" mean? I doubt it is as simply as "I want to play with dolls and use lipstick". Through this discussion I wonder if it is more about how you are being valued in society. For example nail polish and lipstick are used to enhance sexual attraction. So maybe it is a desire to be valued for sexual attractivity, rather than actions, power or wealth (or whatever, men are valued for different things in different environments, I suppose).
- knowitall 13y agoYou assume that being brought up like a boy/girl (that is, boys toys/games vs girl's toys/games) would be the mechanism that determines our gender. Why should that be the case? The mechanism could be something different entirely (As with the ducklings who accept the first thing they see as their mother). Without that assumption, there is no contradiction in the "theory". Although it is also not a theory that can explain how people are made to feel like girls or boys. I don't think such a theory exists yet, or if it does, it has been silenced by political correctness.