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I wonder how the nature versus nurture aspect comes into play in this. Are male and female brains inherently wired differently, or do they wire differently as w

I wonder how the nature versus nurture aspect comes into play in this. Are male and female brains inherently wired differently, or do they wire differently as we grow up due to the different experiences and upbringing men and women are subject to? This might be a dumb question, but one that immediately pops up for me.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
steveridout 13y ago
Definitely not a dumb question, this is what immediately jumped into my head too. I imagine it's very difficult to get an answer to this. A controlled experiment is obviously impossible, but perhaps comparing results from a diverse range of cultures around the world could give a clue.
- V-2 13y ago
  A 100% proper controlled experiment with double blinding etc. is not possible, perhaps, but there are transgender children who often are raised as if they were of their physical sex, which obviously causes them to suffer. I always wondered - if it's purely a social construct that boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls etc., then why in most stories about a girl trapped in a boy's body we hear her say "I wanted to play with girls" (contrary to society's expectations), "I wanted to play with dolls" etc.? I googled it up just now - http://prospect.org/article/transgender-candidate http://prospect.org/article/transgender-candidate The story of Bindaya Rana (from Pakistani), who was born as a male: "Bindiya Rana, one of Pakistan’s first transgender candidates [...] “I used to wear my sister’s clothes,” she said. “And use lipstick and powder and nail polish. I wanted to play with dolls and be in the kitchen.” Her parents disapproved when they found her in makeup, beating her." It's a gaping hole in the theory that we are wired differently "as we grow up due to the different experiences and upbringing men and women are subject to". If one's self-identified gender could be overriden so easily, there would me much less personal tragedies in this world.
  - knowitall 13y ago
    I seriously doubt preferences for lipstick and nail polish are genetic. For most of human evolution, there were no such things around.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      Well, one could have genetic differences that lead to those preferences; it doesn't have to be an encoded preference for a particular type of object. For example, a genetic predisposition towards competition and physical activity could lead to a general preference for certain kinds of sports, even if those didn't exist for most of human evolution. In case you haven't noticed, I'm talking out of my ass here, I have no idea if this is true, it just seems a reasonable possibility.
    - V-2 13y ago
      Yes, and similarly the fear of falling off the roof of a tall building can't be genetic at all, given that for most of human evolution there were no skyscrapers around :)
      - knowitall 13y ago
        Seriously? Monkeys live on trees... Mountains exist for longer than humans.
        spuz 13y ago
        His point is not that fear of falling is learnt by visiting tall buildings but that the logic of his argument is the same as yours. If you can find the flaw in his argument then you should be able to find the flaw in your own.
        knowitall 13y ago
        Help me out then, because I don't see it? A fall is deadly, whether you fall from a skyscraper or a tree. You mean there might have been something else like nail polish, and people evolved a preference for that? But what would that have been? Some meshed up leaves people put on their finger nails? Apparently there is something like a preference for being a woman, and using nail polish can be a proxy for that. But my point is that it is most likely learned that nail polish has something to do with being a woman. And the mechanism is not "I wish I was a woman so that I could use nail polish", it is more likely "I wish I could be a woman, and nail polish makes me feel like one". Nevertheless, I am also not a biologist, just making things up. But I think some basic logic can be applied by everyone.
kosei 13y ago
The change in brain connectivity around age 13 could potentially explain the nurture side. Though this is one of those endless debates that may never be answered. "Male and female brains showed few differences in connectivity up to the age of 13, but became more differentiated in 14- to 17-year-olds."
- icebraining 13y ago
  Wouldn't that indicate an effect caused by puberty instead? Not that nurture can't affect puberty, but I don't think having a beard was caused by how my parents raised me ;)
  - kosei 13y ago
    Interesting theory you have there on these 'beards'...
merrua 13y ago
It does make far more sense that this is the results of what the people in question have been practicing.
knowitall 13y ago
I don't know, and certainly the brain seems to be very amendable (ie taxi drivers have enlarged regions for dealing with maps). However, I'd like to point out that there apparently is a genetic difference in male and female bodies. While women can become very strong and develop "body builder" physiques, it's certainly not the norm (also not sure how much hormone pills play a role in the women who turn out like that). Of course from that it doesn't follow that differences in the brain are genetic, but imo it makes it seem possible. Clearly the physique is optimized for different ways of living, so why not the brain.
nailer 13y ago
Not sure if the portion or gray/white matter could be changed after birth or not. Any neurologists care to comment? From UC Irvine: "The study shows women having more white matter and men more gray matter related to intellectual skill" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050121100142.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050121100142.ht...
markvdb 13y ago
I imagine that nature/nurture research on geneticly similar populations with very different cultures could be incredibly interesting. Say North and South Korea. Not without any difficulties of course...
malandrew 13y ago
That's exactly what I thought as well. I'm curious about what the wiring map looks like for pre-school/kindergarten aged kids look like.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

steveridout 13y ago

Definitely not a dumb question, this is what immediately jumped into my head too. I imagine it's very difficult to get an answer to this. A controlled experiment is obviously impossible, but perhaps comparing results from a diverse range of cultures around the world could give a clue.

V-2 13y ago
A 100% proper controlled experiment with double blinding etc. is not possible, perhaps, but there are transgender children who often are raised as if they were of their physical sex, which obviously causes them to suffer. I always wondered - if it's purely a social construct that boys play with trucks and girls play with dolls etc., then why in most stories about a girl trapped in a boy's body we hear her say "I wanted to play with girls" (contrary to society's expectations), "I wanted to play with dolls" etc.? I googled it up just now - http://prospect.org/article/transgender-candidate http://prospect.org/article/transgender-candidate The story of Bindaya Rana (from Pakistani), who was born as a male: "Bindiya Rana, one of Pakistan’s first transgender candidates [...] “I used to wear my sister’s clothes,” she said. “And use lipstick and powder and nail polish. I wanted to play with dolls and be in the kitchen.” Her parents disapproved when they found her in makeup, beating her." It's a gaping hole in the theory that we are wired differently "as we grow up due to the different experiences and upbringing men and women are subject to". If one's self-identified gender could be overriden so easily, there would me much less personal tragedies in this world.
- knowitall 13y ago
  I seriously doubt preferences for lipstick and nail polish are genetic. For most of human evolution, there were no such things around.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Well, one could have genetic differences that lead to those preferences; it doesn't have to be an encoded preference for a particular type of object. For example, a genetic predisposition towards competition and physical activity could lead to a general preference for certain kinds of sports, even if those didn't exist for most of human evolution. In case you haven't noticed, I'm talking out of my ass here, I have no idea if this is true, it just seems a reasonable possibility.
  - V-2 13y ago
    Yes, and similarly the fear of falling off the roof of a tall building can't be genetic at all, given that for most of human evolution there were no skyscrapers around :)
    - knowitall 13y ago
      Seriously? Monkeys live on trees... Mountains exist for longer than humans.
      - spuz 13y ago
        His point is not that fear of falling is learnt by visiting tall buildings but that the logic of his argument is the same as yours. If you can find the flaw in his argument then you should be able to find the flaw in your own.
        knowitall 13y ago
        Help me out then, because I don't see it? A fall is deadly, whether you fall from a skyscraper or a tree. You mean there might have been something else like nail polish, and people evolved a preference for that? But what would that have been? Some meshed up leaves people put on their finger nails? Apparently there is something like a preference for being a woman, and using nail polish can be a proxy for that. But my point is that it is most likely learned that nail polish has something to do with being a woman. And the mechanism is not "I wish I was a woman so that I could use nail polish", it is more likely "I wish I could be a woman, and nail polish makes me feel like one". Nevertheless, I am also not a biologist, just making things up. But I think some basic logic can be applied by everyone.

kosei 13y ago

The change in brain connectivity around age 13 could potentially explain the nurture side. Though this is one of those endless debates that may never be answered. "Male and female brains showed few differences in connectivity up to the age of 13, but became more differentiated in 14- to 17-year-olds."

icebraining 13y ago
Wouldn't that indicate an effect caused by puberty instead? Not that nurture can't affect puberty, but I don't think having a beard was caused by how my parents raised me ;)
- kosei 13y ago
  Interesting theory you have there on these 'beards'...

merrua 13y ago

It does make far more sense that this is the results of what the people in question have been practicing.

knowitall 13y ago

I don't know, and certainly the brain seems to be very amendable (ie taxi drivers have enlarged regions for dealing with maps). However, I'd like to point out that there apparently is a genetic difference in male and female bodies. While women can become very strong and develop "body builder" physiques, it's certainly not the norm (also not sure how much hormone pills play a role in the women who turn out like that). Of course from that it doesn't follow that differences in the brain are genetic, but imo it makes it seem possible. Clearly the physique is optimized for different ways of living, so why not the brain.

nailer 13y ago

Not sure if the portion or gray/white matter could be changed after birth or not. Any neurologists care to comment? From UC Irvine: "The study shows women having more white matter and men more gray matter related to intellectual skill" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050121100142.htm http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050121100142.ht...

markvdb 13y ago

I imagine that nature/nurture research on geneticly similar populations with very different cultures could be incredibly interesting. Say North and South Korea. Not without any difficulties of course...

malandrew 13y ago

That's exactly what I thought as well. I'm curious about what the wiring map looks like for pre-school/kindergarten aged kids look like.