>And Ruby is an ugly language. Too perl-ish. Definately a taste thing, but I would agree (having done a bit of both over the last year). Ruby OO is nice, but t

>And Ruby is an ugly language. Too perl-ish. Definately a taste thing, but I would agree (having done a bit of both over the last year). Ruby OO is nice, but then OO is often the cause of problems for me (python makes quasi functional styles easy). People don't really use XML with hibernate (and haven't for some years from what I see). Hibernate does try to cater for every corner case though (perhaps the cause of the "bloat"). But its the 80/20 rule again - most people only want 20% of the features, the problem is that every one wants a different 20% (hence you get subjective bloat).