5 ms·

The problem with these talks are that from a developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to c

by ashray 13y ago

The problem with these talks are that from a developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to curb usage of cheap energy in developing nations because: 1. Suddenly, they're affected by climate change, or claim to be. 2. It's just a ploy to increase energy costs for developing nations and keep them behind. This may or may not be true but with this kind of perception, such talks will never go through. Also, there are choking levels of pollution in New Delhi [1] and Beijing. The cities are really uncomfortable, and there is a growing body of research to show that air pollution is carcinogenic. [2] These countries would do well to curb pollution and use clean energy just in the interest of public health. Unfortunately, public health is very low on the agenda. New Delhi is on the brink of ecological collapse (or maybe beyond that depending on the definition). There is no clean air, clean water, or clean soil. There are no numbers to indicate how many pollution related deaths occur in India annually or what kind of productivity is lost. Frankly, no one cares either. Until someone is personally effected (in a drastic way, like NO2 poisoning and dropping dead..) there will be no change. A very large percentage of children in New Delhi are diagnosed with asthma. [1] Climate change is a far cry from getting discussed if domestic air pollution isn't a cause for concern. Source: I am Indian and spend a lot of time there quite often. [1] - http://bkpk.me/cigarettes-arent-that-bad-after-all/ http://bkpk.me/cigarettes-arent-that-bad-after-all/ [2] - http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/17/health/geneva-air-pollution-carcinogenic-who/ http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/17/health/geneva-air-pollutio...

AxisOfEval 13y ago
Yeah. Bang on. That is how it is. Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. That fact of the matter is that every economy goes through this cycle (of growing up). Child labor, poor health-care, now pollution and soon patents. While not being pertinent to this discussion, the country with the greatest patent lobbying bodies is also the country that committed the greatest IPR violations. More here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQZJ5Jl41nk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQZJ5Jl41nk
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  It's not a perfect cycle. LA's terrible smog was not a result of not caring, it was a result of the catalytic converter not existing. Guess what, the catalytic converter exists now.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Was the smog was there before LA started pumping out pollution?
- icambron 13y ago
  I totally understand the sense of injustice here, but it doesn't actually change anything. This isn't really a question of what's fair. Climate change is an actual real thing that really does have to be dealt with, and it's pretty much impossible to deal with without the two most populous countries on board. Questions of ladders and cycles and all of the past and present irresponsibility on the part of Western countries doesn't change that. I'm pessimistic about the whole thing because I think the US and other rich countries will balk on it too (or just break it down the road), but that doesn't make India less wrong about it.
  - tks2103 13y ago
    The sense of injustice changes the way emissions should be cut across the population. Western countries just want to have more stuff at all costs. The developing countries know this, from direct experience in recent memory. So they are not going to play ball. It is extremely critical to understand that the reasons the developing countries are not playing ball is different than the reasons developed countries are not playing ball.
- mahranch 13y ago
  > Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. Well that's a little disingenuous, no? I know the intellectually lazy like to point out how the west didn't have any restrictions 80-90 years ago during their industrial boom, but you have to keep in mind that 80-90 years ago, they didn't know what a greenhouse gas was. And they certainly couldn't know the long-term impact. We're ALL suffering from those mistakes and ignorance. The earth is a spaceship and we ride along in it as we travel through our galaxy. It's a spaceship with a finite amount of available resources and a fragile atmosphere. Past ecological abuses are just that, in the past. We need to look forward to the future and protect our spaceship or we all die.
s-topper 13y ago
...developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to curb usage of cheap energy in developing nations because: 1. Suddenly, they're affected by climate change, or claim to be. 2. It's just a ploy to increase energy costs for developing nations and keep them behind. You're spot on, there.
sandGorgon 13y ago
on the topic of Delhi, perhaps it is pertinent to read this - http://blog.ksidc.org/cng-cleans-up-delhi-air-kerala-awaits-her-turn/ http://blog.ksidc.org/cng-cleans-up-delhi-air-kerala-awaits-... or this http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bharat-stage-iii-vehicles-cant-ply-on-ncr-roads/1100999/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bharat-stage-iii-vehicles-... There are enough of us trying to change the system from within (notwithstanding the Delhi election day after tomorrow). This has resulted in pollution being one of the main aspects of all three major political parties manifesto ([1] vs [2] vs [3]) So let's not say that "it isn't a cause for concern". [1] http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/we-will-work-free-delhi-pollution-and-improve-civic-amenities http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/we-will-work-free-delh... [2] http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/congress-manifesto-promises-subsidised-foodgrain-73-million-people http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/congress-manifesto-pro... [3] http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/bjp-manifesto-taps-public-discontent-over-inflation-power-bills http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/bjp-manifesto-taps-pub...

by ashray 13y ago

AxisOfEval 13y ago

Yeah. Bang on. That is how it is. Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. That fact of the matter is that every economy goes through this cycle (of growing up). Child labor, poor health-care, now pollution and soon patents. While not being pertinent to this discussion, the country with the greatest patent lobbying bodies is also the country that committed the greatest IPR violations. More here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQZJ5Jl41nk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQZJ5Jl41nk

sliverstorm 13y ago
It's not a perfect cycle. LA's terrible smog was not a result of not caring, it was a result of the catalytic converter not existing. Guess what, the catalytic converter exists now.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Was the smog was there before LA started pumping out pollution?
icambron 13y ago
I totally understand the sense of injustice here, but it doesn't actually change anything. This isn't really a question of what's fair. Climate change is an actual real thing that really does have to be dealt with, and it's pretty much impossible to deal with without the two most populous countries on board. Questions of ladders and cycles and all of the past and present irresponsibility on the part of Western countries doesn't change that. I'm pessimistic about the whole thing because I think the US and other rich countries will balk on it too (or just break it down the road), but that doesn't make India less wrong about it.
- tks2103 13y ago
  The sense of injustice changes the way emissions should be cut across the population. Western countries just want to have more stuff at all costs. The developing countries know this, from direct experience in recent memory. So they are not going to play ball. It is extremely critical to understand that the reasons the developing countries are not playing ball is different than the reasons developed countries are not playing ball.
mahranch 13y ago
> Climb the ladder and then throw it away so that others can't get to where you are. Well that's a little disingenuous, no? I know the intellectually lazy like to point out how the west didn't have any restrictions 80-90 years ago during their industrial boom, but you have to keep in mind that 80-90 years ago, they didn't know what a greenhouse gas was. And they certainly couldn't know the long-term impact. We're ALL suffering from those mistakes and ignorance. The earth is a spaceship and we ride along in it as we travel through our galaxy. It's a spaceship with a finite amount of available resources and a fragile atmosphere. Past ecological abuses are just that, in the past. We need to look forward to the future and protect our spaceship or we all die.

s-topper 13y ago

...developing country's perspective it looks like developed nations used cheap energy to get ahead. Now they want to curb usage of cheap energy in developing nations because: 1. Suddenly, they're affected by climate change, or claim to be. 2. It's just a ploy to increase energy costs for developing nations and keep them behind. You're spot on, there.

sandGorgon 13y ago

on the topic of Delhi, perhaps it is pertinent to read this - http://blog.ksidc.org/cng-cleans-up-delhi-air-kerala-awaits-her-turn/ http://blog.ksidc.org/cng-cleans-up-delhi-air-kerala-awaits-... or this http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bharat-stage-iii-vehicles-cant-ply-on-ncr-roads/1100999/ http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bharat-stage-iii-vehicles-... There are enough of us trying to change the system from within (notwithstanding the Delhi election day after tomorrow). This has resulted in pollution being one of the main aspects of all three major political parties manifesto ([1] vs [2] vs [3]) So let's not say that "it isn't a cause for concern". [1] http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/we-will-work-free-delhi-pollution-and-improve-civic-amenities http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/we-will-work-free-delh... [2] http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/congress-manifesto-promises-subsidised-foodgrain-73-million-people http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/congress-manifesto-pro... [3] http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/bjp-manifesto-taps-public-discontent-over-inflation-power-bills http://www.downtoearth.org.in/content/bjp-manifesto-taps-pub...