5 ms·

btc is much like gold, but most ppl here fail to realize that gold as a storage of value makes no logical sense except that a lot of ppl 'believe' in the value

by waqasx 13y ago

btc is much like gold, but most ppl here fail to realize that gold as a storage of value makes no logical sense except that a lot of ppl 'believe' in the value of gold. in that sense, gold is a bigger ponzi scheme than btc personally i believe eventually btc wil crash to smithereens and so will gold prices. but im talking long term, when currencies will be backed by actual work that provides social and economical value

TylerE 13y ago
Nonsense. Gold has non-currency uses so it is, innately, NOT a "fiat" currency. It can be used to make objects of art, and it's essential in many manufacturing processes.
- waqasx 13y ago
  so is mud. we dont use it as currency. why? gold has value for us not cuz of its uses, but cuz it is scarce and it is shiny and its an easy metal to work with
  - TylerE 13y ago
    Please point me to the nearest store selling items costing in excess of a month's salary made with mud. Gold has unique chemical, mechanical, and electrical properties - it's not just any old commodity.
    - waqasx 13y ago
      Gold has unique properties like every element has. But gold jewellery costs a months salary cuz we believe it is valuable, it is purely psychological. Its cost has Nothing to do with its chemistry or value to society. Same goes for btc.
      - TylerE 13y ago
        Actually it does. One of those unique properties of gold is that it is incredibly non-reactive, which means it doesn't visible age, discolor, or tarnish. The value of that for jewelry should be self-evident. It's excellent ductility and malleability are valuable properties as well.
        waqasx 13y ago
        all the things you are saying are just arguments for making gold a good medium of exchange, which it is no longer used for. not one of your arguments suggests that it is a good storage of value, which it used to be because of its scarcity. if indians stop paying doweries in gold and arabs stop finding its shininess alluring, the value will plummet. there is nothing intrinsic in gold that makes it valuable Warren Buffett put it well. "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace," he said. "Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head. Source:http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704032704575268462477689760 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870403270...
- marvin 13y ago
  This argument gets repeated again and again, but it doesn't have roots in reality. The market value of gold is far, far in excess of what the demand from industrial, scientific, fashion and jewelry use cases dictate. In fact, these uses exist despite the fact the gold is very expensive. (Perhaps with the exception of the latter two, which are popular because of gold's high market value. But they do not themselves cause it). If gold and other precious metals did not have their historical use as a currency and the trust of markets (and its suitability as a currency, I suppose), they would be worth at least an order of magnitude less than they are today. And it would be mined a lot less of them.
  - TylerE 13y ago
    [citation needed]
    - marvin 13y ago
      If we're going to play the "memes for intellectuals" game, I could just as easily make a similar claim on your comment. This is a content-free comment. The easiest support for my argument would be looking at the list metals with a similar rarity to gold, and noting that gold is more expensive than all but platinum, despite having an annual production which is >15 times higher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%... Now, please provide a citation for your claim "gold's market value is mostly caused by demand from art and manufacturing processes". I claim that this wrong because 34% of all the world's gold is kept in vaults, and an additional 52% is stored in jewelry (of which a significant amount should be considered an investment by its owners due to the high market value). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve#World_gold_holdings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve#World_gold_holding...
      - TylerE 13y ago
        The fact that you are putting words in my mouth ("gold's market value is mostly caused by demand from art and manufacturing processes") is an indication that you are not debating in good faith. Good day. I shall waste no further time or effort on you.
dnautics 13y ago
gold as a storage of value makes no logical sense 1) it's relatively rare 2) it's easily minted into objects of consistent mass. 3) because of quantum mechanics, gold has a yellow color. This makes it easy to verify gold content without advanced technology. You take a set of "gold standards", say, 99%, 90%, 80%, 75%, and then make a series of streaks against a black rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone_%28assaying_tool%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone_%28assaying_tool%29). Then you take your sample and make a cross-streak. Then you and your trading partner can agree upon an approximate purity level at which you are willing to make the trade for goods. currencies will be backed by actual work that provides social and economical value Who decides what this value is? By hours consumed? Is one hour of sitting on your butt playing a video game worth the same as one hour helping to build a rocket that is destined to try to destroy a (hypothetical) asteroid on a collision course with the planet? How about by "type of work"? Well then, is one hour sitting on your butt playing a video game worth the same as one hour sitting on your butt playing a video game in a playtesting environment?
vubuntu 13y ago
> but im talking long term, when currencies will be backed by actual work that provides social and economical value If it were possible, the absolute currency would be 'life time' as in the movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Time. In the absence of that, something equally dear for staying alive in a increasingly moving towards apocalypse world, like may be bottles of oxygen or water ? But even then, the things that are of value may not be easier/handy to barter/trade with. That is when an alternative 'scarce' 'hard to create and requires resource intensive mining' but 'easy to handle' , 'easy to determine purity' type of resource takes the place as a currency. Gold has that property inherently. Not saying that it is the only absolute resource that has it. But it is a time tested resource with those qualities.

by waqasx 13y ago

TylerE 13y ago

Nonsense. Gold has non-currency uses so it is, innately, NOT a "fiat" currency. It can be used to make objects of art, and it's essential in many manufacturing processes.

waqasx 13y ago
so is mud. we dont use it as currency. why? gold has value for us not cuz of its uses, but cuz it is scarce and it is shiny and its an easy metal to work with
- TylerE 13y ago
  Please point me to the nearest store selling items costing in excess of a month's salary made with mud. Gold has unique chemical, mechanical, and electrical properties - it's not just any old commodity.
  - waqasx 13y ago
    Gold has unique properties like every element has. But gold jewellery costs a months salary cuz we believe it is valuable, it is purely psychological. Its cost has Nothing to do with its chemistry or value to society. Same goes for btc.
    - TylerE 13y ago
      Actually it does. One of those unique properties of gold is that it is incredibly non-reactive, which means it doesn't visible age, discolor, or tarnish. The value of that for jewelry should be self-evident. It's excellent ductility and malleability are valuable properties as well.
      - waqasx 13y ago
        all the things you are saying are just arguments for making gold a good medium of exchange, which it is no longer used for. not one of your arguments suggests that it is a good storage of value, which it used to be because of its scarcity. if indians stop paying doweries in gold and arabs stop finding its shininess alluring, the value will plummet. there is nothing intrinsic in gold that makes it valuable Warren Buffett put it well. "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace," he said. "Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head. Source:http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704032704575268462477689760 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870403270...
marvin 13y ago
This argument gets repeated again and again, but it doesn't have roots in reality. The market value of gold is far, far in excess of what the demand from industrial, scientific, fashion and jewelry use cases dictate. In fact, these uses exist despite the fact the gold is very expensive. (Perhaps with the exception of the latter two, which are popular because of gold's high market value. But they do not themselves cause it). If gold and other precious metals did not have their historical use as a currency and the trust of markets (and its suitability as a currency, I suppose), they would be worth at least an order of magnitude less than they are today. And it would be mined a lot less of them.
- TylerE 13y ago
  [citation needed]
  - marvin 13y ago
    If we're going to play the "memes for intellectuals" game, I could just as easily make a similar claim on your comment. This is a content-free comment. The easiest support for my argument would be looking at the list metals with a similar rarity to gold, and noting that gold is more expensive than all but platinum, despite having an annual production which is >15 times higher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%27s_crust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth%... Now, please provide a citation for your claim "gold's market value is mostly caused by demand from art and manufacturing processes". I claim that this wrong because 34% of all the world's gold is kept in vaults, and an additional 52% is stored in jewelry (of which a significant amount should be considered an investment by its owners due to the high market value). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve#World_gold_holdings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_reserve#World_gold_holding...
    - TylerE 13y ago
      The fact that you are putting words in my mouth ("gold's market value is mostly caused by demand from art and manufacturing processes") is an indication that you are not debating in good faith. Good day. I shall waste no further time or effort on you.

dnautics 13y ago

gold as a storage of value makes no logical sense 1) it's relatively rare 2) it's easily minted into objects of consistent mass. 3) because of quantum mechanics, gold has a yellow color. This makes it easy to verify gold content without advanced technology. You take a set of "gold standards", say, 99%, 90%, 80%, 75%, and then make a series of streaks against a black rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone_%28assaying_tool%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchstone_%28assaying_tool%29). Then you take your sample and make a cross-streak. Then you and your trading partner can agree upon an approximate purity level at which you are willing to make the trade for goods. currencies will be backed by actual work that provides social and economical value Who decides what this value is? By hours consumed? Is one hour of sitting on your butt playing a video game worth the same as one hour helping to build a rocket that is destined to try to destroy a (hypothetical) asteroid on a collision course with the planet? How about by "type of work"? Well then, is one hour sitting on your butt playing a video game worth the same as one hour sitting on your butt playing a video game in a playtesting environment?

vubuntu 13y ago

> but im talking long term, when currencies will be backed by actual work that provides social and economical value If it were possible, the absolute currency would be 'life time' as in the movie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Time. In the absence of that, something equally dear for staying alive in a increasingly moving towards apocalypse world, like may be bottles of oxygen or water ? But even then, the things that are of value may not be easier/handy to barter/trade with. That is when an alternative 'scarce' 'hard to create and requires resource intensive mining' but 'easy to handle' , 'easy to determine purity' type of resource takes the place as a currency. Gold has that property inherently. Not saying that it is the only absolute resource that has it. But it is a time tested resource with those qualities.