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I disagree with that entire premise. Yes it requires technology to collect the tolls. We have that down to a pretty efficient science these days thanks to came

by enjo 13y ago

I disagree with that entire premise. Yes it requires technology to collect the tolls. We have that down to a pretty efficient science these days thanks to cameras. They don't even slow down traffic to collect tolls. I've never encountered a toll road that wasn't a major expressway. The coffee house argument is non-sensical. Toll roads have a very attractive benefit to me. I don't drive. I'm kind of happy to have the people who make the decision to live far away from their work to actually pay for the cost of their commute.

AnthonyMouse 13y ago
> Yes it requires technology to collect the tolls. We have that down to a pretty efficient science these days thanks to cameras. They don't even slow down traffic to collect tolls. The technology costs money, it creates bureaucracy, and it wastes time. You get an EZ-Pass, you now have more charges to reconcile on your credit card which wastes time (multiply by XX million people this turns out to be a lot of wasted time), some people have to be hired to work in a call center to answer calls, maintain webservers, repair road sensors, do enforcement against people who don't pay, etc. etc. Then it's the government, so they're going to get some private company to do it, which is going to hire a bunch of lobbyists (more wasted resources), which are then going to lobby hard to keep as much of the collected money in their own pockets as bureaucratically possible. Also, the automated systems make the surveillance problem worse by an order of magnitude or more. > I've never encountered a toll road that wasn't a major expressway. The coffee house argument is non-sensical. How is it that someone can't work near an onramp to a major expressway and the nearest coffee house be at the next exit or just across a toll bridge? To get to the point, are you questioning the premise that increasing the price of something can discourage productive uses of that thing? > Toll roads have a very attractive benefit to me. I don't drive. Do you also grow everything you eat in your back yard, never buy anything in a local store or have it delivered by UPS and will never require any emergency vehicles to come to your home or work for any reason?
- saryant 13y ago
  > How is it that someone can't work near an onramp to a major expressway and the nearest coffee house be at the next exit or just across a toll bridge? Solve it the way Houston does: frontage roads.
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    You want to have a toll road and a parallel non-toll frontage road? Won't all the traffic end up on the frontage road to avoid the toll? Also, "frontage bridge" is probably not cost effective.
    - saryant 13y ago
      No, the frontage road is slower and has traffic lights, not to mention cars moving on and off since the frontage roads are lined with commercial businesses. The toll roads can go up to 85mph (theoretically, not sure any allow that yet) while frontage roads rarely go above 55. I lived in Houston for quite some time, plenty of people out in the suburbs are willing to pay the toll to avoid traffic and get downtown faster. Houston is also getting rid of its cash lanes and moving towards EZ-Tag only which doesn't require drivers to slow down at all. In Texas it's quite standard to have a highway (toll or not) with a frontage road. Land isn't exactly scarce here, it's not uncommon to have a highway with 3-6 lanes on either side and a frontage road with another 2-4 lanes on either side again.
      - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
        Oh, I get it now. I looked up the toll amounts in Houston. Compare: http://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/tolls.html http://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/tolls.html Also, if you want to see a Bing Maps bug, tell it to give you directions from Newark, NJ to New York, NY and check the "avoid tolls" box. It spins for a few seconds and then says "Driving directions are temporarily unavailable." Most of the other map websites when you check the avoid tolls box it just says it couldn't avoid the tolls. I had a GPS at one point that would actually plot the route but it makes a trip that would take less than a half hour instead take more than 6 hours because to avoid a toll you have to cross the Hudson River in Albany. Obviously they've had to remove that route from the maps lest the tolls be raised a little bit more and it become cost effective.

by enjo 13y ago

AnthonyMouse 13y ago

> Yes it requires technology to collect the tolls. We have that down to a pretty efficient science these days thanks to cameras. They don't even slow down traffic to collect tolls. The technology costs money, it creates bureaucracy, and it wastes time. You get an EZ-Pass, you now have more charges to reconcile on your credit card which wastes time (multiply by XX million people this turns out to be a lot of wasted time), some people have to be hired to work in a call center to answer calls, maintain webservers, repair road sensors, do enforcement against people who don't pay, etc. etc. Then it's the government, so they're going to get some private company to do it, which is going to hire a bunch of lobbyists (more wasted resources), which are then going to lobby hard to keep as much of the collected money in their own pockets as bureaucratically possible. Also, the automated systems make the surveillance problem worse by an order of magnitude or more. > I've never encountered a toll road that wasn't a major expressway. The coffee house argument is non-sensical. How is it that someone can't work near an onramp to a major expressway and the nearest coffee house be at the next exit or just across a toll bridge? To get to the point, are you questioning the premise that increasing the price of something can discourage productive uses of that thing? > Toll roads have a very attractive benefit to me. I don't drive. Do you also grow everything you eat in your back yard, never buy anything in a local store or have it delivered by UPS and will never require any emergency vehicles to come to your home or work for any reason?

saryant 13y ago
> How is it that someone can't work near an onramp to a major expressway and the nearest coffee house be at the next exit or just across a toll bridge? Solve it the way Houston does: frontage roads.
- AnthonyMouse 13y ago
  You want to have a toll road and a parallel non-toll frontage road? Won't all the traffic end up on the frontage road to avoid the toll? Also, "frontage bridge" is probably not cost effective.
  - saryant 13y ago
    No, the frontage road is slower and has traffic lights, not to mention cars moving on and off since the frontage roads are lined with commercial businesses. The toll roads can go up to 85mph (theoretically, not sure any allow that yet) while frontage roads rarely go above 55. I lived in Houston for quite some time, plenty of people out in the suburbs are willing to pay the toll to avoid traffic and get downtown faster. Houston is also getting rid of its cash lanes and moving towards EZ-Tag only which doesn't require drivers to slow down at all. In Texas it's quite standard to have a highway (toll or not) with a frontage road. Land isn't exactly scarce here, it's not uncommon to have a highway with 3-6 lanes on either side and a frontage road with another 2-4 lanes on either side again.
    - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
      Oh, I get it now. I looked up the toll amounts in Houston. Compare: http://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/tolls.html http://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/tolls.html Also, if you want to see a Bing Maps bug, tell it to give you directions from Newark, NJ to New York, NY and check the "avoid tolls" box. It spins for a few seconds and then says "Driving directions are temporarily unavailable." Most of the other map websites when you check the avoid tolls box it just says it couldn't avoid the tolls. I had a GPS at one point that would actually plot the route but it makes a trip that would take less than a half hour instead take more than 6 hours because to avoid a toll you have to cross the Hudson River in Albany. Obviously they've had to remove that route from the maps lest the tolls be raised a little bit more and it become cost effective.