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That will probably seem more relevant when someone tries to translate the libuv docs to Russian, or when somebody complains that a Russian sentence should use g

That will probably seem more relevant when someone tries to translate the libuv docs to Russian, or when somebody complains that a Russian sentence should use gender neutral pronouns in some software docs. I don't really think it is relevant right now.

lukaseder 13y ago
I find it relevant. For a non-native English speaker (Ben, the "offender"), Him or Them seems not as relevant as to the people trying to burn him at stake for the offence. What this comment about Russian is saying is that these things are very delicate to get right. In some languages even more than in others
- jacalata 13y ago
  If I were a non native speaker faced with a small text edit that I didn't understand the reason for but which many people had just gotten angry about, I would probably not publicly revert it. If Ben wishes to blame his poor English skills (and I have not seen him suggest this, only people hypothesizing on his behalf) then I would suggest he become more aware of his weaknesses and not appoint himself judge of things he doesn't understand.
  - lukaseder 13y ago
    This is Ben's latest position from 5hrs ago: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568172 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568... Until that moment, I don't think he was even asked what his position was and why he acted the way he did.
    - jacalata 13y ago
      Thanks, I hadn't seen that. That seems quite reasonable and he admits he didn't understand the point of the request, and that he shouldn't have reverted it. Pretty classy work.
    - gruntmaster9000 13y ago
      He was asked, sort of: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29539667 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29539... But the thread was immediately derailed in the next comment by some asshole saying he was glad the change didn’t go through, setting off the whole fiasco. It could have been a nice teaching moment, giving Ben a chance to explain his dismissal (which turned out to be logically reasonable if not tactful), followed by an explanation to a non-native speaker the importance of non-gendered pronouns. Instead, as it all too-often does, the situation became a complete shitstorm because some people can’t understand that “hostile” doesn’t require, or even imply, conscious intent. Mens Rights activists need to “lighten up”. Naturally, said asshole is continuing to fan the flames: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29576993 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29576...
rjknight 13y ago
It's relevant because the majority of open source developers do not have English as a first language.
- girvo 13y ago
  Interestingly, the guys I know who have English as a second language and are developers prefer to use English for all technical documentation. Some even are actively annoyed by those who use their native tongue. Of course, that's biased by the fact that those people speak English, that's why I can converse with them. I'd be curious to know if this was a majority opinion, or a minority!
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    The Chinese developers of my acquaintance (mostly) do not speak english, and consequently don't particularly appreciate english documentation. As in your case, the documentation preference is going to be strongly determined by language (in)capability.
zmk_ 13y ago
But in Russian (as in other Slavic languages) you would use more frequently equivalents to words like 'people', 'nobody' in sentences like these, i.e., when it is not necessary to convey the sex (not grammatical gender). The fact that each noun has a grammatical gender (m/f/n) and verbs/adjectives/etc. tend to take suffixes to reflect these is a totally different thing.
- andrewl-hn 13y ago
  In Russian, when you write "user" - "пользователь", you would definetly write "решил" - "decided (with implicit musculine gender)". That is just how the grammar work in this language. To change that one would not simply replace the pronouns but also transform about 50-60% of other words in a colloquial everyday speech. Changes like this take centuries!
  - zmk_ 13y ago
    You are missing my point that in languages with explicit grammatical gender of nouns, it is not true that \forall grammatical gender==implied sex, e.g. in Polish if you wrote zegarmistrz (watchmaker, masculin) you would use masculin suffixes for adj/v and you would not imply the sex since there is no feminin counterpart (even if you really tried). In your case, решил probably (I don't speak Russian) inherits the gender from пользователь. My broader point is that in many languages, which Slavic ones are a subgroup of (but in German as well), there exists a construct that is used when you do not want to imply sex. In English they struggle with the one/he/she/they. And, BTW, in my experience she is more popular than he (e.g. in financial literature bankers are all 'she' even though female bankers are as common as female coders most likely).

lukaseder 13y ago

I find it relevant. For a non-native English speaker (Ben, the "offender"), Him or Them seems not as relevant as to the people trying to burn him at stake for the offence. What this comment about Russian is saying is that these things are very delicate to get right. In some languages even more than in others

jacalata 13y ago
If I were a non native speaker faced with a small text edit that I didn't understand the reason for but which many people had just gotten angry about, I would probably not publicly revert it. If Ben wishes to blame his poor English skills (and I have not seen him suggest this, only people hypothesizing on his behalf) then I would suggest he become more aware of his weaknesses and not appoint himself judge of things he doesn't understand.
- lukaseder 13y ago
  This is Ben's latest position from 5hrs ago: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568172 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568... Until that moment, I don't think he was even asked what his position was and why he acted the way he did.
  - jacalata 13y ago
    Thanks, I hadn't seen that. That seems quite reasonable and he admits he didn't understand the point of the request, and that he shouldn't have reverted it. Pretty classy work.
  - gruntmaster9000 13y ago
    He was asked, sort of: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29539667 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29539... But the thread was immediately derailed in the next comment by some asshole saying he was glad the change didn’t go through, setting off the whole fiasco. It could have been a nice teaching moment, giving Ben a chance to explain his dismissal (which turned out to be logically reasonable if not tactful), followed by an explanation to a non-native speaker the importance of non-gendered pronouns. Instead, as it all too-often does, the situation became a complete shitstorm because some people can’t understand that “hostile” doesn’t require, or even imply, conscious intent. Mens Rights activists need to “lighten up”. Naturally, said asshole is continuing to fan the flames: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29576993 https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29576...

rjknight 13y ago

It's relevant because the majority of open source developers do not have English as a first language.

girvo 13y ago
Interestingly, the guys I know who have English as a second language and are developers prefer to use English for all technical documentation. Some even are actively annoyed by those who use their native tongue. Of course, that's biased by the fact that those people speak English, that's why I can converse with them. I'd be curious to know if this was a majority opinion, or a minority!
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  The Chinese developers of my acquaintance (mostly) do not speak english, and consequently don't particularly appreciate english documentation. As in your case, the documentation preference is going to be strongly determined by language (in)capability.

zmk_ 13y ago

But in Russian (as in other Slavic languages) you would use more frequently equivalents to words like 'people', 'nobody' in sentences like these, i.e., when it is not necessary to convey the sex (not grammatical gender). The fact that each noun has a grammatical gender (m/f/n) and verbs/adjectives/etc. tend to take suffixes to reflect these is a totally different thing.

andrewl-hn 13y ago
In Russian, when you write "user" - "пользователь", you would definetly write "решил" - "decided (with implicit musculine gender)". That is just how the grammar work in this language. To change that one would not simply replace the pronouns but also transform about 50-60% of other words in a colloquial everyday speech. Changes like this take centuries!
- zmk_ 13y ago
  You are missing my point that in languages with explicit grammatical gender of nouns, it is not true that \forall grammatical gender==implied sex, e.g. in Polish if you wrote zegarmistrz (watchmaker, masculin) you would use masculin suffixes for adj/v and you would not imply the sex since there is no feminin counterpart (even if you really tried). In your case, решил probably (I don't speak Russian) inherits the gender from пользователь. My broader point is that in many languages, which Slavic ones are a subgroup of (but in German as well), there exists a construct that is used when you do not want to imply sex. In English they struggle with the one/he/she/they. And, BTW, in my experience she is more popular than he (e.g. in financial literature bankers are all 'she' even though female bankers are as common as female coders most likely).