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On the contrary, this is the only acceptable response for a company. To not respond this strongly would invite more intense criticism, potentially at a nationa

by Bahamut 13y ago

On the contrary, this is the only acceptable response for a company. To not respond this strongly would invite more intense criticism, potentially at a national scale, as well as a toxic environment for any female engineers internally due to the company being perceived as not doing enough. This would be poisonous for recruiting where good engineering talent is at a premium, and potentially disastrous for the company as a whole if clients decide to protest not having a no tolerance attitude towards this behavior by withdrawing their business. Whatever the views people may have here, the company was boxed in & was forced to make a strong statement. To do otherwise would be a terrifying mistake for the company itself.

theorique 13y ago
Is that really true? If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy, rather I would be concerned that a temperamental manager could fire someone over something so trivial.
- Bahamut 13y ago
  I know plenty of quality female engineers who would be greatly offended or disturbed, not to mention female employees overall - it isn't about the he/she controversy itself necessarily (although using male gendered pronouns exclusively has a long history of intimidating women & making them feel less welcome). It may also offend quality male engineers, who feel like the culture at the company is not as rosy as they expected. As a male engineer myself, if I saw such signs, I'd think about jumping ship simply because leadership isn't thinking at a high level about the effects of their actions (or inactions), and word has a habit of getting around (and in this case, it is visible enough as is). Just as companies don't want to associate with something less desirable most of the time, there is a lot of quality employees that feel that way about employers. Tech companies like to bill themselves as great places to work for all prospective employees they court - this is the type of issue that is exactly an instant dealbreaker for many out there if it is not handled decisively.
- exogen 13y ago
  > If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy This statement is a perfect demonstration of why people accuse tech nerds of having no empathy. You really have no idea whether you would get upset or not, because you have no idea what effect a lifetime of subtle (and often overt) sexism would have on you. You do not have the experience to simply declare what your feelings would be if the tables were turned.
rjknight 13y ago
Nonsense. You're exaggerating the stakes greatly. There are people who want to believe in a great conspiracy of "politically correct" social justice warriors, who are using their political influence to bully corporations and individuals, which seems to be compatible with what you're saying. There are also people who want to believe in a great conspiracy of male software developers who think that women are at best unnecessary and at worst inferior contributors to the industry. Both are totally incorrect, but these debates often seem to proceed on the basis that these two sides are real and at war with each other, and the only choice we have is which side we want to be on. I don't think you're deliberately reinforcing this idea, but this is the effect that posts like yours can have.
- Bahamut 13y ago
  Would you be willing to put your company on the line in the event of such a situation? I mentioned potentially - it is possible almost none of those possibilities happened. But if you were in the position to make risk assessments for your company, would you risk this story being picked up by national media? Similarly, would you put your company's culture on the line?
  - rjknight 13y ago
    Hmm. I'm probably the kind of person who would try to refuse being influenced by what I believed to be unreasonable pressure. I've said how I think this situation should be handled and I would be willing to defend that. I suppose I have a lot of faith in talking sensibly to people and working things out, and maybe that is naive. Sometimes one simply has to call the bluff. If I had to say what "side" I'm on, I'd say I'm on the side of inclusivity and I'm happy to state a clear preference for the removal of gender-exclusive language from source code comments. If people think that's not enough, and that I should start firing people who do not immediately agree to do so when presented with ad-hoc pull requests to that effect, I'd also be willing to explain to those people why I won't be firing anyone on those grounds. If we believe that everyone really does divide into the two camps of totalitarian feminists and reactionary chauvinists then I'm going to be attacked by both sides. My point is that I believe that very few people hold such views, and that most people just want the right thing to happen and for nobody to get hurt in the process, and I can't imagine that I could suffer meaningful damage from holding such a view.

by Bahamut 13y ago

theorique 13y ago

Is that really true? If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy, rather I would be concerned that a temperamental manager could fire someone over something so trivial.

Bahamut 13y ago
I know plenty of quality female engineers who would be greatly offended or disturbed, not to mention female employees overall - it isn't about the he/she controversy itself necessarily (although using male gendered pronouns exclusively has a long history of intimidating women & making them feel less welcome). It may also offend quality male engineers, who feel like the culture at the company is not as rosy as they expected. As a male engineer myself, if I saw such signs, I'd think about jumping ship simply because leadership isn't thinking at a high level about the effects of their actions (or inactions), and word has a habit of getting around (and in this case, it is visible enough as is). Just as companies don't want to associate with something less desirable most of the time, there is a lot of quality employees that feel that way about employers. Tech companies like to bill themselves as great places to work for all prospective employees they court - this is the type of issue that is exactly an instant dealbreaker for many out there if it is not handled decisively.
exogen 13y ago
> If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy This statement is a perfect demonstration of why people accuse tech nerds of having no empathy. You really have no idea whether you would get upset or not, because you have no idea what effect a lifetime of subtle (and often overt) sexism would have on you. You do not have the experience to simply declare what your feelings would be if the tables were turned.

rjknight 13y ago

Nonsense. You're exaggerating the stakes greatly. There are people who want to believe in a great conspiracy of "politically correct" social justice warriors, who are using their political influence to bully corporations and individuals, which seems to be compatible with what you're saying. There are also people who want to believe in a great conspiracy of male software developers who think that women are at best unnecessary and at worst inferior contributors to the industry. Both are totally incorrect, but these debates often seem to proceed on the basis that these two sides are real and at war with each other, and the only choice we have is which side we want to be on. I don't think you're deliberately reinforcing this idea, but this is the effect that posts like yours can have.

Bahamut 13y ago
Would you be willing to put your company on the line in the event of such a situation? I mentioned potentially - it is possible almost none of those possibilities happened. But if you were in the position to make risk assessments for your company, would you risk this story being picked up by national media? Similarly, would you put your company's culture on the line?
- rjknight 13y ago
  Hmm. I'm probably the kind of person who would try to refuse being influenced by what I believed to be unreasonable pressure. I've said how I think this situation should be handled and I would be willing to defend that. I suppose I have a lot of faith in talking sensibly to people and working things out, and maybe that is naive. Sometimes one simply has to call the bluff. If I had to say what "side" I'm on, I'd say I'm on the side of inclusivity and I'm happy to state a clear preference for the removal of gender-exclusive language from source code comments. If people think that's not enough, and that I should start firing people who do not immediately agree to do so when presented with ad-hoc pull requests to that effect, I'd also be willing to explain to those people why I won't be firing anyone on those grounds. If we believe that everyone really does divide into the two camps of totalitarian feminists and reactionary chauvinists then I'm going to be attacked by both sides. My point is that I believe that very few people hold such views, and that most people just want the right thing to happen and for nobody to get hurt in the process, and I can't imagine that I could suffer meaningful damage from holding such a view.