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Fuck Joyent. Seriously. This is something that calls for dialogue, discussion and debate. I seriously hope Ben Noordhuis learns from this. But to say that y

Fuck Joyent. Seriously. This is something that calls for dialogue, discussion and debate. I seriously hope Ben Noordhuis learns from this. But to say that you would fire someone over this is a sign that you are not a fit company for a reasonable person to buy from or work for.

brown9-2 13y ago
Is there seriously an argument to be made for a pro-"he" side? I don't understand how people both say "there should be a debate" and also "it's one word in meaningless documentation".
- rjknight 13y ago
  There's probably an argument for it, yes. I can't imagine that it's a very good one, but I imagine that it exists. (There's always an argument for the status quo, which is "this is how we've always done it", and there's certainly a tradition of using "he" as a singular pronoun). In any case, I am contrasting "debate" with "we would fire you for not agreeing with us". Debate does not imply that both sides are equal, but it does mean that people are given the opportunity to hear both sides of an argument and decide what they want to do. If Ben Noordhuis still thinks that gendered pronouns are a good idea after this debate, he's still entitled to his opinion, but if Joyent are the owners of the project he's working on then he'll have to keep his opinion to himself when working on that project.
- anon4 13y ago
  Oh yes there is. He and She can only refer to people while They can refer to things, too. Take for example: "if a person wishes to rungle the querts, they need to configure them such so that they will be in the state indicated by the widget manager". A sentence like that, while ultimately understandable, does cause me mild confusion at first read, and I'm sure I can come up with a more natural-sounding, but more confusing example, if I weren't so tired. From my point of view, English is basically fucked. You've ended up with third person pronouns that are irredeemably connected with the gender of the person they describe. They is really a cludge that sort of works, but isn't quite a drop-in replacement for good old She and He. I'd use They when the text can flow naturally with it, but drop to She/He when it starts sounding ambiguous or use any other kind of description. If writing instruction manuals, I'd use You to refer to the user at all times, or just drop to passive form and not mention people's genders at all.
- rsynnott 13y ago
  "He" (or sometimes alternation between "he" and "she") is stipulated in some older style manuals (I think the New Yorker still uses the latter, say). There are also some people who seem to be under the impression that singular they is a neologism created by an imagined political correctness conspiracy (of course, they're wrong; it's been in use for over five centuries).
Bahamut 13y ago
On the contrary, this is the only acceptable response for a company. To not respond this strongly would invite more intense criticism, potentially at a national scale, as well as a toxic environment for any female engineers internally due to the company being perceived as not doing enough. This would be poisonous for recruiting where good engineering talent is at a premium, and potentially disastrous for the company as a whole if clients decide to protest not having a no tolerance attitude towards this behavior by withdrawing their business. Whatever the views people may have here, the company was boxed in & was forced to make a strong statement. To do otherwise would be a terrifying mistake for the company itself.
- theorique 13y ago
  Is that really true? If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy, rather I would be concerned that a temperamental manager could fire someone over something so trivial.
  - Bahamut 13y ago
    I know plenty of quality female engineers who would be greatly offended or disturbed, not to mention female employees overall - it isn't about the he/she controversy itself necessarily (although using male gendered pronouns exclusively has a long history of intimidating women & making them feel less welcome). It may also offend quality male engineers, who feel like the culture at the company is not as rosy as they expected. As a male engineer myself, if I saw such signs, I'd think about jumping ship simply because leadership isn't thinking at a high level about the effects of their actions (or inactions), and word has a habit of getting around (and in this case, it is visible enough as is). Just as companies don't want to associate with something less desirable most of the time, there is a lot of quality employees that feel that way about employers. Tech companies like to bill themselves as great places to work for all prospective employees they court - this is the type of issue that is exactly an instant dealbreaker for many out there if it is not handled decisively.
  - exogen 13y ago
    > If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy This statement is a perfect demonstration of why people accuse tech nerds of having no empathy. You really have no idea whether you would get upset or not, because you have no idea what effect a lifetime of subtle (and often overt) sexism would have on you. You do not have the experience to simply declare what your feelings would be if the tables were turned.

brown9-2 13y ago

Is there seriously an argument to be made for a pro-"he" side? I don't understand how people both say "there should be a debate" and also "it's one word in meaningless documentation".

rjknight 13y ago
There's probably an argument for it, yes. I can't imagine that it's a very good one, but I imagine that it exists. (There's always an argument for the status quo, which is "this is how we've always done it", and there's certainly a tradition of using "he" as a singular pronoun). In any case, I am contrasting "debate" with "we would fire you for not agreeing with us". Debate does not imply that both sides are equal, but it does mean that people are given the opportunity to hear both sides of an argument and decide what they want to do. If Ben Noordhuis still thinks that gendered pronouns are a good idea after this debate, he's still entitled to his opinion, but if Joyent are the owners of the project he's working on then he'll have to keep his opinion to himself when working on that project.
anon4 13y ago
Oh yes there is. He and She can only refer to people while They can refer to things, too. Take for example: "if a person wishes to rungle the querts, they need to configure them such so that they will be in the state indicated by the widget manager". A sentence like that, while ultimately understandable, does cause me mild confusion at first read, and I'm sure I can come up with a more natural-sounding, but more confusing example, if I weren't so tired. From my point of view, English is basically fucked. You've ended up with third person pronouns that are irredeemably connected with the gender of the person they describe. They is really a cludge that sort of works, but isn't quite a drop-in replacement for good old She and He. I'd use They when the text can flow naturally with it, but drop to She/He when it starts sounding ambiguous or use any other kind of description. If writing instruction manuals, I'd use You to refer to the user at all times, or just drop to passive form and not mention people's genders at all.
rsynnott 13y ago
"He" (or sometimes alternation between "he" and "she") is stipulated in some older style manuals (I think the New Yorker still uses the latter, say). There are also some people who seem to be under the impression that singular they is a neologism created by an imagined political correctness conspiracy (of course, they're wrong; it's been in use for over five centuries).

Bahamut 13y ago

On the contrary, this is the only acceptable response for a company. To not respond this strongly would invite more intense criticism, potentially at a national scale, as well as a toxic environment for any female engineers internally due to the company being perceived as not doing enough. This would be poisonous for recruiting where good engineering talent is at a premium, and potentially disastrous for the company as a whole if clients decide to protest not having a no tolerance attitude towards this behavior by withdrawing their business. Whatever the views people may have here, the company was boxed in & was forced to make a strong statement. To do otherwise would be a terrifying mistake for the company itself.

theorique 13y ago
Is that really true? If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy, rather I would be concerned that a temperamental manager could fire someone over something so trivial.
- Bahamut 13y ago
  I know plenty of quality female engineers who would be greatly offended or disturbed, not to mention female employees overall - it isn't about the he/she controversy itself necessarily (although using male gendered pronouns exclusively has a long history of intimidating women & making them feel less welcome). It may also offend quality male engineers, who feel like the culture at the company is not as rosy as they expected. As a male engineer myself, if I saw such signs, I'd think about jumping ship simply because leadership isn't thinking at a high level about the effects of their actions (or inactions), and word has a habit of getting around (and in this case, it is visible enough as is). Just as companies don't want to associate with something less desirable most of the time, there is a lot of quality employees that feel that way about employers. Tech companies like to bill themselves as great places to work for all prospective employees they court - this is the type of issue that is exactly an instant dealbreaker for many out there if it is not handled decisively.
- exogen 13y ago
  > If I were a female engineer, I would not get upset about the whole "he/she" controversy This statement is a perfect demonstration of why people accuse tech nerds of having no empathy. You really have no idea whether you would get upset or not, because you have no idea what effect a lifetime of subtle (and often overt) sexism would have on you. You do not have the experience to simply declare what your feelings would be if the tables were turned.