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Please do not pollute the discussion with this Orwellian libertarian redefinition of words. > And by honestly I mean he didn't force people to pay him and he d

Please do not pollute the discussion with this Orwellian libertarian redefinition of words. > And by honestly I mean he didn't force people to pay him and he didn't coerce anyone to pay him. Every economic transaction takes place within the context of coercion, because property rights are themselves coercion. For instance, people who need to work to pay the rent "choose" to work because they will be evicted from their shelter by law enforcement if they do not pay. Libertarians like to pretend that this sort of force doesn't exist, and only use the term "force" when other people enforce their right to property via taxation. It's totally intellectually dishonest, and I suspect most libertarians are aware of this but continue to use such terminology because it makes it less obvious that they are merely arguing for entrenchment of their own privilege.

snitko 13y ago
Government is simply one way to enforce property rights. It's a monopoly on force. If you had 3 or more major players on the market (and working on the same territory) you'd have your property rights enforced alright. The problem with the government is that because it is a monopoly, it is very easy for it to abuse the force it has.
TruthElixirX 13y ago
And I suppose the just thing would be "free" shelter for everyone so that humanity is "free" from work?
- djrobstep 13y ago
  You seem to be erroneously concluding that I'm opposed to the concept of property rights.
- nzp 13y ago
  Yes. That's exactly what would be just, among other things.
  - snitko 13y ago
    Then you can make it happen. Go, produce something valuable, make billions and spend it all on free shelter for everyone.
  - TruthElixirX 13y ago
    You can't be free from work.
    - nzp 13y ago
      Of course you can't (although I do believe we can and should be free from unwanted, unpleasant labour). But hey, you asked a value based question and got a value based answer. ;)

snitko 13y ago

Government is simply one way to enforce property rights. It's a monopoly on force. If you had 3 or more major players on the market (and working on the same territory) you'd have your property rights enforced alright. The problem with the government is that because it is a monopoly, it is very easy for it to abuse the force it has.

TruthElixirX 13y ago

And I suppose the just thing would be "free" shelter for everyone so that humanity is "free" from work?

djrobstep 13y ago
You seem to be erroneously concluding that I'm opposed to the concept of property rights.
nzp 13y ago
Yes. That's exactly what would be just, among other things.
- snitko 13y ago
  Then you can make it happen. Go, produce something valuable, make billions and spend it all on free shelter for everyone.
- TruthElixirX 13y ago
  You can't be free from work.
  - nzp 13y ago
    Of course you can't (although I do believe we can and should be free from unwanted, unpleasant labour). But hey, you asked a value based question and got a value based answer. ;)