4 ms·

This probably doesn't help feminists with the image problem of being uptight and overly serious.

aaronbrethorst 13y ago
I am a heterosexual white man, but this kind of comment still makes me bristle. If you had to deal with the casual dismissal of inequity in your particular cohort on a regular basis, you might be "uptight and overly serious," too.
- parennoob 13y ago
  I am a heterosexual man of colour, and I think this sort of artificially enforced "all right, let's remove all traces of individually identifiable references" does absolutely nothing to increase equality between different subgroups. [side note + example: I really do not understand the term "person of colour" as used in modern American society. To me, it smacks of the old racist term "coloured". But do I still go ahead and use it to refer to myself, because the majority of people understand what I mean.]
  - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
    The more I think about this issue, the more I recognise that the original github thread did take things a bit far and we all need to be careful not to dive headlong into extreme pedantry. I don't actually think there's anything wrong with using either gender-specific pronoun, but it would be nice if each were used with roughly the same frequency. [side note: it's quite weird that the comment you're replying to felt the need to bring race into this discussion in the first place]
    - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
      it's quite weird that the comment you're replying to felt the need to bring race into this discussion in the first place I don't think it's weird at all. I belong to a group given a significant amount of privilege based upon nothing more than the color of my skin, sexual preferences and gender. There are many facets to American cultural normativity, with three of the most important being the ones I listed. Since we're having a conversation about "uptight" feminists, I thought it was worth establishing that I didn't belong to any group one might normally associate with being "uptight" about that and similar issues.
  - Adrock 13y ago
    What if our pronouns were racial instead of gendered? I'd have a problem with the white versions being used in all my technical documentation.
    - parennoob 13y ago
      Exactly. But if you go around and look at any tech company, the majority of people are white males. I think changing that actual situation is more important than changing documentation and making yourself feel good about having done something. If you really want to change things, you can write to your Senator or suchlike about racial inequality you have observed, or immigration reform. That is much harder than just grepping a codebase and submitting a PR -- but if you do it, you might actually effect change (and as a person of colour, I would be much more grateful to you, if you are from a more privileged class).
      - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
        Of course, doing something to effect greater change is 'better' than doing something that effects lesser change, but that doesn't invalidate doing the thing that effects lesser change. Lesser change is better than no change.
        parennoob 13y ago
        No, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost You grep your codebase of choice for 'him', s/him/them, fire off a pull request, and think "Nice! I really did a lot for the advancement of minorities in tech today!", and then go out for drinks with your mostly white coworkers, where you discuss diversity in the workplace with a straight face.
        aredridel 13y ago
        It's a start. It costs you very little. Do it! Posting on hacker news an starting a flame war might cost a lot though.
      - 13y ago
  - efnx 13y ago
    Right? Inequality in the workplace will be squashed just like it will everywhere else - with people being awesome to each other. It probably won't happen because of those people refusing to acknowledge differences. Saying 'him' or 'her' in documentation isn't hostile - it's anthropomorphic. I guess in this situation it's an assumption about the user, but why is it hostile?
parennoob 13y ago
Next pull request: Convert all usages of the word "history" to "theirstory" :) [ugh, i'm probably about to get a lot of downvotes for this, which might just prove my point.]
- Brakenshire 13y ago
  FWIW, the use of singular they as a gender indeterminate pronoun is very well-established, in fact the revisionism is in the movement to cast the form as ungrammatical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Generic_they http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Generic_they This isn't really anything like 'theirstory', which is an artificial construction.
  - parennoob 13y ago
    Look at the reflexive form in that article. "Each child feeds themself." I don't think that singular "they" never be used, just that enforcing its usage everywhere by claiming that the opposite is "hostile" (as this PR seems to lead to) will lead to awkward constructions.
    - Brakenshire 13y ago
      I don't advocate enforcing its usage, I just think it is more appropriate in these circumstances. The reflexive form isn't well established, but I don't think that particularly matters. Languages are messy, and its difficult and futile to enforce prescriptive logic on them. To build upon your example, if you search for the form 'learn for themselves', you'll find that many people use the phrase with nouns which are nominally singular, such as 'this is something that each generation must learn for themselves'. Well, so be it.
    - aredridel 13y ago
      I see no problem with it. It's a word I've used my whole life...
aredridel 13y ago
Because it's very reasonable and not a problem.

I am a heterosexual white man, but this kind of comment still makes me bristle. If you had to deal with the casual dismissal of inequity in your particular cohort on a regular basis, you might be "uptight and overly serious," too.

parennoob 13y ago
I am a heterosexual man of colour, and I think this sort of artificially enforced "all right, let's remove all traces of individually identifiable references" does absolutely nothing to increase equality between different subgroups. [side note + example: I really do not understand the term "person of colour" as used in modern American society. To me, it smacks of the old racist term "coloured". But do I still go ahead and use it to refer to myself, because the majority of people understand what I mean.]
- oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
  The more I think about this issue, the more I recognise that the original github thread did take things a bit far and we all need to be careful not to dive headlong into extreme pedantry. I don't actually think there's anything wrong with using either gender-specific pronoun, but it would be nice if each were used with roughly the same frequency. [side note: it's quite weird that the comment you're replying to felt the need to bring race into this discussion in the first place]
  - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
    it's quite weird that the comment you're replying to felt the need to bring race into this discussion in the first place I don't think it's weird at all. I belong to a group given a significant amount of privilege based upon nothing more than the color of my skin, sexual preferences and gender. There are many facets to American cultural normativity, with three of the most important being the ones I listed. Since we're having a conversation about "uptight" feminists, I thought it was worth establishing that I didn't belong to any group one might normally associate with being "uptight" about that and similar issues.
- Adrock 13y ago
  What if our pronouns were racial instead of gendered? I'd have a problem with the white versions being used in all my technical documentation.
  - parennoob 13y ago
    Exactly. But if you go around and look at any tech company, the majority of people are white males. I think changing that actual situation is more important than changing documentation and making yourself feel good about having done something. If you really want to change things, you can write to your Senator or suchlike about racial inequality you have observed, or immigration reform. That is much harder than just grepping a codebase and submitting a PR -- but if you do it, you might actually effect change (and as a person of colour, I would be much more grateful to you, if you are from a more privileged class).
    - oneeyedpigeon 13y ago
      Of course, doing something to effect greater change is 'better' than doing something that effects lesser change, but that doesn't invalidate doing the thing that effects lesser change. Lesser change is better than no change.
      - parennoob 13y ago
        No, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost You grep your codebase of choice for 'him', s/him/them, fire off a pull request, and think "Nice! I really did a lot for the advancement of minorities in tech today!", and then go out for drinks with your mostly white coworkers, where you discuss diversity in the workplace with a straight face.
        aredridel 13y ago
        It's a start. It costs you very little. Do it! Posting on hacker news an starting a flame war might cost a lot though.
    - 13y ago
- efnx 13y ago
  Right? Inequality in the workplace will be squashed just like it will everywhere else - with people being awesome to each other. It probably won't happen because of those people refusing to acknowledge differences. Saying 'him' or 'her' in documentation isn't hostile - it's anthropomorphic. I guess in this situation it's an assumption about the user, but why is it hostile?

parennoob 13y ago

Next pull request: Convert all usages of the word "history" to "theirstory" :) [ugh, i'm probably about to get a lot of downvotes for this, which might just prove my point.]

Brakenshire 13y ago
FWIW, the use of singular they as a gender indeterminate pronoun is very well-established, in fact the revisionism is in the movement to cast the form as ungrammatical: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Generic_they http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they#Generic_they This isn't really anything like 'theirstory', which is an artificial construction.
- parennoob 13y ago
  Look at the reflexive form in that article. "Each child feeds themself." I don't think that singular "they" never be used, just that enforcing its usage everywhere by claiming that the opposite is "hostile" (as this PR seems to lead to) will lead to awkward constructions.
  - Brakenshire 13y ago
    I don't advocate enforcing its usage, I just think it is more appropriate in these circumstances. The reflexive form isn't well established, but I don't think that particularly matters. Languages are messy, and its difficult and futile to enforce prescriptive logic on them. To build upon your example, if you search for the form 'learn for themselves', you'll find that many people use the phrase with nouns which are nominally singular, such as 'this is something that each generation must learn for themselves'. Well, so be it.
  - aredridel 13y ago
    I see no problem with it. It's a word I've used my whole life...

aredridel 13y ago

Because it's very reasonable and not a problem.