5 ms·

Was this as ridiculous a pastiche of clichés when it was written in 1995 as it is now? Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike perma

by brazzy 13y ago

Was this as ridiculous a pastiche of clichés when it was written in 1995 as it is now? Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years? It sounds to me like Card read through the Jargon file, i.e. the self-image of a considerably earlier subculture of programmers, took it at face value, added some hyperbole and wrote it up as a kind of revelation.

humanfromearth 13y ago
I had the same reaction. Pizzas? Overweight dudes with their 'tight' code?
- 72deluxe 13y ago
  I would live on pizzas and coffee. Seems the newer generation of programmers don't like that sort of thing! I'm not old by any stretch of the imagination, but I always thought of programmers as beardy types with awkward glasses, brown trousers and a crumpled shirt/t-shirt. (I never ironed my shirts, that's for sure!). And coffee was always black. Programmers were more like engineers. As stated, this brogrammer persona is a new thing. No lattes for me thanks!
  - lifty 13y ago
    Well, I think the difference is that now, the beards, awkward glasses and brown trousers are fashionable. So what was once ridiculed and avoided, is now praised and desirable.
    - 72deluxe 13y ago
      That's a relief. The only thing I need to buy is a large stash of brown trousers then! Funny how programmers years ago were generally thought of as a bit odd, nerdy types. Now they're almost "cool". Thanks App Store!
lotsofcows 13y ago
<looks around office> Hmmm....
purringmeow 13y ago
And giving up "sleep, love and health"? As if I am going to part with my health for whatever salary...
- michaelgrafl 13y ago
  Not for whatever salary. For doing what you're good at and makes you feel like god.
  - purringmeow 13y ago
    If I get an RSI I wouldn't be able to write code :)
Killah911 13y ago
Aaah, the skinny hipster programmer sipping a latte is kind'o new. I recall sitting in a conference room with a bunch of programmers not to long ago and ~80% fit the description of the article. There were dudes sitting down the hallway with whom I chatted over IRC or IM more than I ever did in person. Sure the article may be a bit of a cliche, but that's for a reason. I agree programmers now are arguably more "social", but then again a lot of the rest of the world now are probably more like what programmers used to be like, glued to a computing device.
g8oz 13y ago
>> Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years? Yes. Powerful hardware is tolerant of normal people and their normal code. You had to be a little "off" to get the camel through the eye of the needle in times past.
shubb 13y ago
Part of this is that programming has changed, or perhaps that there are new areas that require different sorts of people.The further you get from web applications, the more like this the people are. What kind of work attracts people that prefer computers to other people? Front end is about design, which means it is about people. Backend... less so, but most people do full stack these days anway. So if you do web, you do people (or you are unlikely to be good). But the technology behind web is easier. That isn't to say web is easy - it is two problems, a people problem and a technical problem. But you are writing in a dynamic language which doesn't appear to be sentient and hate you, and a lot of the more technical stuff gets abstracted away. In 1995, you wrote some C, you wrote some assembely, and as an afterthought, you made an interface featuring horrible IT guy art and an unforgiving number of buttons. There was a people problem, but the engineers either ignored or didn't notice it. When someone did - MS windows, iphones... well they made a lot of money because caring about user experience was actually a diferentiator back then. There are still fields of software for people that don't like people. They work in software research, on embedded systems. If they are not so good technically, maybe they work on government / defence software where the user matters less and the ecosystem still uses C++. A lot of them have moved into mathmatical modelling and HFT, because the money is really good there. There are other reasons for the change - I think Redit and co have created a cultural change. Programmers go to the gym, and feel uncomfortable not having interests outside of LISP. But yeah, things have changed. I'd say they have changed for the better. But to me, what we really need, is more diversity.
grammaton 13y ago
You need to remember - or know - that the Internet and software where THE thing to be writing about in science fiction circles back in the early nineties. See: Sterling, Bruce. Didn't matter if you're actually a writer, not an engineer, and have little idea what you're actually talking about.

by brazzy 13y ago

humanfromearth 13y ago

I had the same reaction. Pizzas? Overweight dudes with their 'tight' code?

72deluxe 13y ago
I would live on pizzas and coffee. Seems the newer generation of programmers don't like that sort of thing! I'm not old by any stretch of the imagination, but I always thought of programmers as beardy types with awkward glasses, brown trousers and a crumpled shirt/t-shirt. (I never ironed my shirts, that's for sure!). And coffee was always black. Programmers were more like engineers. As stated, this brogrammer persona is a new thing. No lattes for me thanks!
- lifty 13y ago
  Well, I think the difference is that now, the beards, awkward glasses and brown trousers are fashionable. So what was once ridiculed and avoided, is now praised and desirable.
  - 72deluxe 13y ago
    That's a relief. The only thing I need to buy is a large stash of brown trousers then! Funny how programmers years ago were generally thought of as a bit odd, nerdy types. Now they're almost "cool". Thanks App Store!

lotsofcows 13y ago

<looks around office> Hmmm....

purringmeow 13y ago

And giving up "sleep, love and health"? As if I am going to part with my health for whatever salary...

michaelgrafl 13y ago
Not for whatever salary. For doing what you're good at and makes you feel like god.
- purringmeow 13y ago
  If I get an RSI I wouldn't be able to write code :)

Killah911 13y ago

Aaah, the skinny hipster programmer sipping a latte is kind'o new. I recall sitting in a conference room with a bunch of programmers not to long ago and ~80% fit the description of the article. There were dudes sitting down the hallway with whom I chatted over IRC or IM more than I ever did in person. Sure the article may be a bit of a cliche, but that's for a reason. I agree programmers now are arguably more "social", but then again a lot of the rest of the world now are probably more like what programmers used to be like, glued to a computing device.

g8oz 13y ago

>> Or did programmers really only start to have social lives, dislike permanent crunch mode and plan before coding in the last 20 years? Yes. Powerful hardware is tolerant of normal people and their normal code. You had to be a little "off" to get the camel through the eye of the needle in times past.

shubb 13y ago

Part of this is that programming has changed, or perhaps that there are new areas that require different sorts of people.The further you get from web applications, the more like this the people are. What kind of work attracts people that prefer computers to other people? Front end is about design, which means it is about people. Backend... less so, but most people do full stack these days anway. So if you do web, you do people (or you are unlikely to be good). But the technology behind web is easier. That isn't to say web is easy - it is two problems, a people problem and a technical problem. But you are writing in a dynamic language which doesn't appear to be sentient and hate you, and a lot of the more technical stuff gets abstracted away. In 1995, you wrote some C, you wrote some assembely, and as an afterthought, you made an interface featuring horrible IT guy art and an unforgiving number of buttons. There was a people problem, but the engineers either ignored or didn't notice it. When someone did - MS windows, iphones... well they made a lot of money because caring about user experience was actually a diferentiator back then. There are still fields of software for people that don't like people. They work in software research, on embedded systems. If they are not so good technically, maybe they work on government / defence software where the user matters less and the ecosystem still uses C++. A lot of them have moved into mathmatical modelling and HFT, because the money is really good there. There are other reasons for the change - I think Redit and co have created a cultural change. Programmers go to the gym, and feel uncomfortable not having interests outside of LISP. But yeah, things have changed. I'd say they have changed for the better. But to me, what we really need, is more diversity.

grammaton 13y ago

You need to remember - or know - that the Internet and software where THE thing to be writing about in science fiction circles back in the early nineties. See: Sterling, Bruce. Didn't matter if you're actually a writer, not an engineer, and have little idea what you're actually talking about.