3 ms·

Wind Turbines on Power Lines?

3 points by mmphosis 17y ago

TrevorJ 17y ago
This is a really elegant solution. One concern is that the increased wind drag may cause the incidence of downed power lines in storms. They would have to do some studies on long-term stability in high winds. The other thing I wonder about is that becasue high-tension wires form catenary curves between the towers, would the turbines cause the cable to begin to swing, and in some conditions possible get close enough to the adjacent cable to arc and short out?
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  Cables are separated regularly on long stretches of cable. I've seen separators on all kinds of power cables, so I doubt shorting out would be a serious problem, however the cables reaching a harmonic might be a problem. Suspension bridges can be brought down by wind, so when you start attaching multiple cables into one unified body with high drag, you're going to begin risking a wind-induced harmonic taking out your power lines. It's a good idea, I doubt they'll replace power plants, but they're likely to be far more useful and practical than their windturbine brethren due to the sheer fact that they may be able to make the construction of power cables profitable in themselves. Instead of costing for maintenance and the average 7% drain of long distance power cables, using this style of wind turbine could turn existing power cables into profit or at least give them a break-even potential.
philwelch 17y ago
We're going to need all the wind power we can get, so this definitely helps. But it also complicates the problem of power transmission, and requires selling new technology to a power industry that is very conservative and slow to adopt changes. Wind farms, for all their innovation, are just parked somewhere and hooked up through a generation transformer into the distribution system. This would require re-engineering the distribution system, something that's already more "smart" and complicated than most people think.
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  The power industry is slow to adopt change for a reason, that being a conventional power plant may have a lifespan of over 50 years. This is why there was such a call for nuclear power decades ago, to avert the problems of using vast amounts of depleting fossil fuels. There's already concern growing over the wind farms affecting weather and not just weather, but also causing changes in soil hydration. Potentially mass adoption of wind turbines risks increasing desertification and damaging crop production. Slow adoption can be good and in the case of wind power, it's better to fix the problems now than cause disasters later. We're causing global warming from fossil fuel use, but if we do a mass switch to wind turbines before the problems are solved, we're risking desertification on an unrecognisable scale. Not to mention risking mass extinction of bird species. This is why helical wind turbines are attracting so much attention, because instead of mixing air vertically, they mix it horizontally, which if not reduces actually eliminates the risk of desertification and the potential damage to crop yields. It also reduces damage to bird populations due to helical wind turbines generally having a smaller impression on the land, which incidentally boosts efficiency for a given area. It would be nice if all our fossil fuel plants had been changed to a mix of nuclear and green, but just like Nuclear had a dangerous start, it's wise not to have Green make a dangerous start and stall the production of Green energy for 40-50 years like we did Nuclear.
  - philwelch 17y ago
    "The power industry is slow to adopt change for a reason, that being a conventional power plant may have a lifespan of over 50 years." There's also the slight issue that the system seems to work acceptably well, and if you change it, you risk jeopardizing that. Conservatism is a rather rational, effective strategy for systems that require high reliability. Also, adding more production sites is less of a risk than changing the transmission system. If a newfangled power plant doesn't work, there are other sources of power to draw from. Worst-case scenario is a power shortage. If you fuck with the transmission system, you risk creating new types of faults, in addition to needing to replace or recalibrate your substation equipment along the line. And if the transmission system goes down for an appreciable period of time, you get unplanned, uncontrolled, uncontrollable blackouts. And then the CEO has to try to explain why exactly he crashed the power grid by installing some type of hippie-shit wind turbines to the transmission lines. I'm not saying it's a bad idea or that it can't be done. I'm saying it'll be a hard sell, the same way digital protective relays were a hard sell when they were invented in the 80's.
RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
There's going to be a problem getting the phase right. You'll want to generate AC, but it won't be at the right frequency, and even if it is at the right frequency, it won't be in phase. These aren't impossible to solve, but it will make the units heavy and complex.

3 points by mmphosis 17y ago

This is a really elegant solution. One concern is that the increased wind drag may cause the incidence of downed power lines in storms. They would have to do some studies on long-term stability in high winds. The other thing I wonder about is that becasue high-tension wires form catenary curves between the towers, would the turbines cause the cable to begin to swing, and in some conditions possible get close enough to the adjacent cable to arc and short out?

electromagnetic 17y ago
Cables are separated regularly on long stretches of cable. I've seen separators on all kinds of power cables, so I doubt shorting out would be a serious problem, however the cables reaching a harmonic might be a problem. Suspension bridges can be brought down by wind, so when you start attaching multiple cables into one unified body with high drag, you're going to begin risking a wind-induced harmonic taking out your power lines. It's a good idea, I doubt they'll replace power plants, but they're likely to be far more useful and practical than their windturbine brethren due to the sheer fact that they may be able to make the construction of power cables profitable in themselves. Instead of costing for maintenance and the average 7% drain of long distance power cables, using this style of wind turbine could turn existing power cables into profit or at least give them a break-even potential.

philwelch 17y ago

We're going to need all the wind power we can get, so this definitely helps. But it also complicates the problem of power transmission, and requires selling new technology to a power industry that is very conservative and slow to adopt changes. Wind farms, for all their innovation, are just parked somewhere and hooked up through a generation transformer into the distribution system. This would require re-engineering the distribution system, something that's already more "smart" and complicated than most people think.

electromagnetic 17y ago
The power industry is slow to adopt change for a reason, that being a conventional power plant may have a lifespan of over 50 years. This is why there was such a call for nuclear power decades ago, to avert the problems of using vast amounts of depleting fossil fuels. There's already concern growing over the wind farms affecting weather and not just weather, but also causing changes in soil hydration. Potentially mass adoption of wind turbines risks increasing desertification and damaging crop production. Slow adoption can be good and in the case of wind power, it's better to fix the problems now than cause disasters later. We're causing global warming from fossil fuel use, but if we do a mass switch to wind turbines before the problems are solved, we're risking desertification on an unrecognisable scale. Not to mention risking mass extinction of bird species. This is why helical wind turbines are attracting so much attention, because instead of mixing air vertically, they mix it horizontally, which if not reduces actually eliminates the risk of desertification and the potential damage to crop yields. It also reduces damage to bird populations due to helical wind turbines generally having a smaller impression on the land, which incidentally boosts efficiency for a given area. It would be nice if all our fossil fuel plants had been changed to a mix of nuclear and green, but just like Nuclear had a dangerous start, it's wise not to have Green make a dangerous start and stall the production of Green energy for 40-50 years like we did Nuclear.
- philwelch 17y ago
  "The power industry is slow to adopt change for a reason, that being a conventional power plant may have a lifespan of over 50 years." There's also the slight issue that the system seems to work acceptably well, and if you change it, you risk jeopardizing that. Conservatism is a rather rational, effective strategy for systems that require high reliability. Also, adding more production sites is less of a risk than changing the transmission system. If a newfangled power plant doesn't work, there are other sources of power to draw from. Worst-case scenario is a power shortage. If you fuck with the transmission system, you risk creating new types of faults, in addition to needing to replace or recalibrate your substation equipment along the line. And if the transmission system goes down for an appreciable period of time, you get unplanned, uncontrolled, uncontrollable blackouts. And then the CEO has to try to explain why exactly he crashed the power grid by installing some type of hippie-shit wind turbines to the transmission lines. I'm not saying it's a bad idea or that it can't be done. I'm saying it'll be a hard sell, the same way digital protective relays were a hard sell when they were invented in the 80's.

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago

There's going to be a problem getting the phase right. You'll want to generate AC, but it won't be at the right frequency, and even if it is at the right frequency, it won't be in phase. These aren't impossible to solve, but it will make the units heavy and complex.