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The system being better than the alternatives and the system caring about you are two different things. > The very idea that maybe the dearest leaders of whate

by IanCal 13y ago

The system being better than the alternatives and the system caring about you are two different things. > The very idea that maybe the dearest leaders of whatever country you live in don't actually care about you doesn't seem to be able to penetrate people's minds, even though time and again they lie and abuse their powers. Really? Because the prevailing opinion with people I speak to is that politicians are bastards, and that's replicated here. In fact, politicians are very rarely looked at in a good light. People dislike what we have! What's the approval rating of Congress? Your rhetoric is the same I see time and time again. People need to "wake up" and see that the system is terrible, and they're so stupid for not seeing it. People do see it, we've got well past that point. The idea that there are significant problems with the way we run countries is painfully fucking obvious. You're not smarter than everyone else for seeing that there is corruption, or that people lie. These revelations are not new, they're not anything different from what we've seen for thousands of years. The problem is nobody has a good plan for what else to do. > Even if you hint to people that maybe we don't really need a government to live our lives in peace, at the very best it is suggested you go to Somalia. Well it's a good point, we can point at countries without democratic-ish rule and they're often really terrible places to live. I get to complain about MPs spending expenses money on duck houses on the internet because I have reliable infrastructure and enough money to buy a computer and an internet connection. I'm not worried about a group of teens in the military coming in and raping my wife. > Even if you hint to people that maybe we don't really need a government to live our lives in peace We don't, not if everyone is nice. But "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" is the kind of political plan I'd expect from a 5 year old. Unless you have a concrete suggestion, something better than "not this", then you have nothing to add to an incredibly important conversation.

SwellJoe 13y ago
"What's the approval rating of Congress?" There's an old saying, I dunno who said it first: People hate congress, and love their congressman. That may not be as true these days...there's a pretty big disconnect, and a big part of the issue is that nobody votes because nobody believes it makes a difference (because it doesn't). At best you get to choose the lesser of two assholes.
- rdl 13y ago
  Really doesn't apply in California.
snitko 13y ago
> Really? Because the prevailing opinion with people I speak to is that politicians are bastards, and that's replicated here. In fact, politicians are very rarely looked at in a good light. People dislike what we have! Well, they dislike individuals. And that's to be expected, because they do shitty things when elected and people start noticing this over time. Yet they keep voting, hoping the next guy is going to be better and also because "the wrong lizard might get in" to use Douglas Adams' words. > The problem is nobody has a good plan for what else to do. Maybe you don't need a plan. Maybe you just need to get rid of the cancer which is government and let free people live as they please. Free market enterprise, no matter what horrors we've been told about it, doesn't seem to have a tendency to go to wars with countries every decade and kill millions of people. Not because the actors in it are noble, but because they wouldn't be able to finance those horrible things with the money they stole from others. > We don't, not if everyone is nice. But "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" is the kind of political plan I'd expect from a 5 year old. Unless you have a concrete suggestion, something better than "not this", then you have nothing to add to an incredibly important conversation. I have a suggestion. Free market and no government would be nice, but for reasons mentioned in the Matrix I can see many people would be very reluctant to believe it could actually work.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > Yet they keep voting, Voter turn out rates show many people just don't bother to vote.
  - oleganza 13y ago
    Because many people don't feel like it changes anything for themselves. People everyday vote with their money and their decisions in life and reap the results. They feel that what they do changes life around them. Voting had never affected themselves and most people are always angry at something that government does or doesn't do and can't do anything about it seriously. They all see crazy activists and how it's hard for them to gain anything from the system. That's why people don't vote.
- xd 13y ago
  I get what you're saying. However without a government you are simply relying on people to be good and fair to each other. I don't know how long it's been since you last checked the people state of affairs, but no matter how bad you think politicians are or greedy government is, the majority of people out there wouldn't pay taxes to fund education, roads, hospitals, law enforcement etc unless forced to do so.
baddox 13y ago
There is no shortage of genuine and detailed proposals for societies without government. People tend to mock and dismiss them immediately without any real consideration, generally with the argument that it's impossible to have anything else or that it's not perfect, but it's the best we can do. And this fits The Matrix metaphor perfectly: the state very deliberately and explicitly seeks to make people dependent on the states and to convince people of the necessity of having a state.
- bruceboughton 13y ago
  Care to give examples?
nzp 13y ago
> The problem is nobody has a good plan for what else to do. There are plenty of plans, if one is willing to listen (anarchism). It's not the lack of plans that is the problem, it's people not having the guts to let go of what we have now. Constant indoctrination, since childhood, with the idea that is the best we can do is also a significant factor. > I'm not worried about a group of teens in the military coming in and raping my wife. The lack of official, internationally recognized state apparatus is not the reason this happens. For overwhelming majority of people, if they woke up the next morning and realized the state is gone, I'm pretty sure their first thought wouldn't be to go out on the street and start shooting. Those few that would are not deterred from such behaviour in the presence of state either. > But "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" is the kind of political plan I'd expect from a 5 year old. It's not about people being nice. It's about creating a system where there is no reason or incentive to be bad, a system where it doesn't make sense to be bad to others. But even if people are somehow inherently bad, isn't it logical to not want a system where such people can rule over you?

by IanCal 13y ago

SwellJoe 13y ago

"What's the approval rating of Congress?" There's an old saying, I dunno who said it first: People hate congress, and love their congressman. That may not be as true these days...there's a pretty big disconnect, and a big part of the issue is that nobody votes because nobody believes it makes a difference (because it doesn't). At best you get to choose the lesser of two assholes.

rdl 13y ago
Really doesn't apply in California.

snitko 13y ago

> Really? Because the prevailing opinion with people I speak to is that politicians are bastards, and that's replicated here. In fact, politicians are very rarely looked at in a good light. People dislike what we have! Well, they dislike individuals. And that's to be expected, because they do shitty things when elected and people start noticing this over time. Yet they keep voting, hoping the next guy is going to be better and also because "the wrong lizard might get in" to use Douglas Adams' words. > The problem is nobody has a good plan for what else to do. Maybe you don't need a plan. Maybe you just need to get rid of the cancer which is government and let free people live as they please. Free market enterprise, no matter what horrors we've been told about it, doesn't seem to have a tendency to go to wars with countries every decade and kill millions of people. Not because the actors in it are noble, but because they wouldn't be able to finance those horrible things with the money they stole from others. > We don't, not if everyone is nice. But "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" is the kind of political plan I'd expect from a 5 year old. Unless you have a concrete suggestion, something better than "not this", then you have nothing to add to an incredibly important conversation. I have a suggestion. Free market and no government would be nice, but for reasons mentioned in the Matrix I can see many people would be very reluctant to believe it could actually work.

DanBC 13y ago
> Yet they keep voting, Voter turn out rates show many people just don't bother to vote.
- oleganza 13y ago
  Because many people don't feel like it changes anything for themselves. People everyday vote with their money and their decisions in life and reap the results. They feel that what they do changes life around them. Voting had never affected themselves and most people are always angry at something that government does or doesn't do and can't do anything about it seriously. They all see crazy activists and how it's hard for them to gain anything from the system. That's why people don't vote.
xd 13y ago
I get what you're saying. However without a government you are simply relying on people to be good and fair to each other. I don't know how long it's been since you last checked the people state of affairs, but no matter how bad you think politicians are or greedy government is, the majority of people out there wouldn't pay taxes to fund education, roads, hospitals, law enforcement etc unless forced to do so.

baddox 13y ago

There is no shortage of genuine and detailed proposals for societies without government. People tend to mock and dismiss them immediately without any real consideration, generally with the argument that it's impossible to have anything else or that it's not perfect, but it's the best we can do. And this fits The Matrix metaphor perfectly: the state very deliberately and explicitly seeks to make people dependent on the states and to convince people of the necessity of having a state.

bruceboughton 13y ago
Care to give examples?

nzp 13y ago

> The problem is nobody has a good plan for what else to do. There are plenty of plans, if one is willing to listen (anarchism). It's not the lack of plans that is the problem, it's people not having the guts to let go of what we have now. Constant indoctrination, since childhood, with the idea that is the best we can do is also a significant factor. > I'm not worried about a group of teens in the military coming in and raping my wife. The lack of official, internationally recognized state apparatus is not the reason this happens. For overwhelming majority of people, if they woke up the next morning and realized the state is gone, I'm pretty sure their first thought wouldn't be to go out on the street and start shooting. Those few that would are not deterred from such behaviour in the presence of state either. > But "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice" is the kind of political plan I'd expect from a 5 year old. It's not about people being nice. It's about creating a system where there is no reason or incentive to be bad, a system where it doesn't make sense to be bad to others. But even if people are somehow inherently bad, isn't it logical to not want a system where such people can rule over you?