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> So it's illegal to violate an agreement you didn't enter in? That makes no sense, sugar. Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal.

> So it's illegal to violate an agreement you didn't enter in? That makes no sense, sugar. Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. > He states that they had to written, explicit contact. Care to read my post again? I read it, your prior post was very short. See my quote above directly from his blog post; there wasn't any contract.

Amadou 13y ago
Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. I think it is in substantial dispute. Can you cite a case of someone in the US being successfully prosecuted for downloading? Note that this precludes bittorrent, gnutella, etc situations where downloading means simultaneously uploading. Outside of the US there are plenty of countries where it has been made explicit in the law that downloading is OK. Some even going so far as to include the uploading portion of torrenting, etc as legal too. Canada: http://archive.is/W0mdI http://archive.is/W0mdI Netherlands: http://torrentfreak.com/dutch-parliament-downloading-movies-and-music-will-stay-legal-111224/ http://torrentfreak.com/dutch-parliament-downloading-movies-... Spain: http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/21/spanish-pirate-site-owners-to-get-six-years-jailtime-but-users-off-the-hook/?ncid=tcdaily http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/21/spanish-pirate-site-owners-...
- res0nat0r 13y ago
  > I think it is in substantial dispute. Can you cite a case of someone in the US being successfully prosecuted for downloading? Note that this precludes bittorrent, gnutella, etc situations where downloading means simultaneously uploading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fastlink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fastlink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Site_Down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Site_Down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Buccaneer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Buccaneer Note: Just because I don't have any cases offhand of my friends fined for jaywalking, doesn't mean it isn't against the law. > Outside of the US there are plenty of countries where it has been made explicit in the law that downloading is OK. Some even going so far as to include the uploading portion of torrenting, etc as legal too. I don't know much about the Dutch law, but it is supplemented by a 'piracy tax', ie, storage devices are more expensive to purchase among other things.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    Note: Just because I don't have any cases offhand of my friends fined for jaywalking, doesn't mean it isn't against the law. That's putting your arguments into the realm of faith. If those three citations are any indication, your faith is misplaced. All of those were for people doing distribution (e.g. uploading). None of them were for downloading. I don't think it is much to ask for you to have just one definite case to back up your claim that the legality of downloading is not in dispute. Just one. Here's one for jaywalking: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/raquel-nelson-jail-for-jaywalking_b_905925.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/raquel-nelson-jai...
    - tedunangst 13y ago
      Somehow there's this weird gap where people completely freak out over the difference between stealing and copying, but the difference between uploading and downloading just slides right by.
    - res0nat0r 13y ago
      http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fined+for+downloading http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fined+for+downloading
      - Amadou 13y ago
        I went through the first four hits on that. All of them included uploading. Please pick a case that you are confident supports your claims and then we can examine it. As a point of order, the surest way to admit you are wrong is to tell the other person to "google it." It isn't anyone else's job to prove you are right.
icebraining 13y ago
Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. Actually, not where I live. But the point is that the situations are different, because I don't have an agreement with any artist. Whether that makes it illegal to use copyright works was not the issue in discussion. What was being discussed was the supposed hypocrisy of anti-copyright people. there wasn't any contract. There's was an implied agreement. Whether he has a legal foot to stand on is irrelevant to this discussion, because we weren't talking about the legality of the situation, but what it should be.
- res0nat0r 13y ago
  > There's was an implied agreement. There is also an implied agreement that when an artist asks you to pay $12 for a CD, that you pay for it. This isn't very hard to understand.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    And so I ask again, when did I agree to that, in an explicit or implicit way? And you yourself answered, "you didn't if you downloaded it without paying". So no, there isn't.
    - crusso 13y ago
      When did you agree to let the police protect you if they encounter you being mugged? Some things are just part of societal existence. You can't opt out of them any more than you can opt out of paying your taxes on profits you make.
      - Amadou 13y ago
        When did you agree to let the police protect you if they encounter you being mugged? That's a particularly poor example. Supreme Court Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html In case you can't get past the paywall (try googling the title and going from there), the summary is that a woman got a protective court order and then she called police and told them her husband had violated the court order. They did not act, and he killed her three kids. If a court order with explicit instructions to arrest should it be violated isn't enough to move the police into action, simply encountering you isn't worth a hill of beans.

Amadou 13y ago

Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. I think it is in substantial dispute. Can you cite a case of someone in the US being successfully prosecuted for downloading? Note that this precludes bittorrent, gnutella, etc situations where downloading means simultaneously uploading. Outside of the US there are plenty of countries where it has been made explicit in the law that downloading is OK. Some even going so far as to include the uploading portion of torrenting, etc as legal too. Canada: http://archive.is/W0mdI http://archive.is/W0mdI Netherlands: http://torrentfreak.com/dutch-parliament-downloading-movies-and-music-will-stay-legal-111224/ http://torrentfreak.com/dutch-parliament-downloading-movies-... Spain: http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/21/spanish-pirate-site-owners-to-get-six-years-jailtime-but-users-off-the-hook/?ncid=tcdaily http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/21/spanish-pirate-site-owners-...

res0nat0r 13y ago
> I think it is in substantial dispute. Can you cite a case of someone in the US being successfully prosecuted for downloading? Note that this precludes bittorrent, gnutella, etc situations where downloading means simultaneously uploading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fastlink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fastlink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Site_Down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Site_Down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Buccaneer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Buccaneer Note: Just because I don't have any cases offhand of my friends fined for jaywalking, doesn't mean it isn't against the law. > Outside of the US there are plenty of countries where it has been made explicit in the law that downloading is OK. Some even going so far as to include the uploading portion of torrenting, etc as legal too. I don't know much about the Dutch law, but it is supplemented by a 'piracy tax', ie, storage devices are more expensive to purchase among other things.
- Amadou 13y ago
  Note: Just because I don't have any cases offhand of my friends fined for jaywalking, doesn't mean it isn't against the law. That's putting your arguments into the realm of faith. If those three citations are any indication, your faith is misplaced. All of those were for people doing distribution (e.g. uploading). None of them were for downloading. I don't think it is much to ask for you to have just one definite case to back up your claim that the legality of downloading is not in dispute. Just one. Here's one for jaywalking: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/raquel-nelson-jail-for-jaywalking_b_905925.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/raquel-nelson-jai...
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    Somehow there's this weird gap where people completely freak out over the difference between stealing and copying, but the difference between uploading and downloading just slides right by.
  - res0nat0r 13y ago
    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fined+for+downloading http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fined+for+downloading
    - Amadou 13y ago
      I went through the first four hits on that. All of them included uploading. Please pick a case that you are confident supports your claims and then we can examine it. As a point of order, the surest way to admit you are wrong is to tell the other person to "google it." It isn't anyone else's job to prove you are right.

icebraining 13y ago

Yes. Downloading an album or movie without paying for it is illegal. This isn't in dispute. Actually, not where I live. But the point is that the situations are different, because I don't have an agreement with any artist. Whether that makes it illegal to use copyright works was not the issue in discussion. What was being discussed was the supposed hypocrisy of anti-copyright people. there wasn't any contract. There's was an implied agreement. Whether he has a legal foot to stand on is irrelevant to this discussion, because we weren't talking about the legality of the situation, but what it should be.

res0nat0r 13y ago
> There's was an implied agreement. There is also an implied agreement that when an artist asks you to pay $12 for a CD, that you pay for it. This isn't very hard to understand.
- icebraining 13y ago
  And so I ask again, when did I agree to that, in an explicit or implicit way? And you yourself answered, "you didn't if you downloaded it without paying". So no, there isn't.
  - crusso 13y ago
    When did you agree to let the police protect you if they encounter you being mugged? Some things are just part of societal existence. You can't opt out of them any more than you can opt out of paying your taxes on profits you make.
    - Amadou 13y ago
      When did you agree to let the police protect you if they encounter you being mugged? That's a particularly poor example. Supreme Court Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html In case you can't get past the paywall (try googling the title and going from there), the summary is that a woman got a protective court order and then she called police and told them her husband had violated the court order. They did not act, and he killed her three kids. If a court order with explicit instructions to arrest should it be violated isn't enough to move the police into action, simply encountering you isn't worth a hill of beans.