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Strangely enough, I'm using Linux precisely because proprietary software is painful to use. For example, searching for software with google to download it, tryi

by ori_b 17y ago

Strangely enough, I'm using Linux precisely because proprietary software is painful to use. For example, searching for software with google to download it, trying to determine if the source is reliable, and clicking through a manual installer is way too tedious - it should be at my fingertips. Also, at least when compared to Windows (where everyone and his brother seems to feel the need for a custom and flashy toolkit, even within Microsoft), Linux apps have mostly standardized on look and feel. Very few people seem to feel the need to reinvent the GUI toolkit and make something that looks completely out of place on Linux (except for the proprietary vendors, like Google, who seem to be ignoring the established human interface guidelines and completely inventing their own look for Chrome) Finally, as a developer, being able to delve into the source of libraries when debugging is invaluable.

IsaacSchlueter 17y ago
It is this result of "good lazy" app developers that has helped move FOSS in the right direction, IMO. Aptitude and GTK are the best things to happen to Linux since Linus.
bad_user 17y ago
Having a central repository that handles version dependencies and upgrades ... is great. But let's be honest here: whenever a newer version of a software package is released, it can take months before it enters sid on Debian, or in Ubuntu, and these are the better-maintained distros. And if you want to distribute proprietary software, maintaining multiple packages for multiple distributions and multiple versions, is hell-like. And regarding interface guide lines, I do not agree that Linux apps have a standard. Quite the contrary.
- psadauskas 17y ago
  But that's the philosophy of those distros such as Debian, Ubunutu and Fedora: Don't upgrade anything except security patches between releases. If you want the bleeding edge packages, you need to install it yourself from an add-on repo (once you set it up, its just as easy as `apt-get install newpkg`. Or, pick a rolling-release distro that caters more towards having the latest packages available, such as Gentoo or Arch.
  - cschwarm 17y ago
    That's just an explanation, not a reason. Why does it have to be like that? Why does Linux distributions fall in one of two categories: either "stable foundation and out-dated apps" or "unstable foundation and recent apps"? What many people want is a stable foundation and recent apps. This is easier to get with a decentral installation system.
    - psadauskas 17y ago
      Who's foundation? I'm a web developer, so to me, I want the latest ruby, apache, etc... However, a server admin might want the more "stable" versions of the same. I know that Gentoo, at least, has the facility to accomplish this. They have package masking, so you can specify exactly the packages you want to be kept on the bleeding edge. Taken a step further, you can set up your own "profile", and list exactly what version of each package in the system you want. Arch Linux provides something similar; you can list what versions a package shouldn't be upgraded past in a config file. I'm sorry, but there's nothing "easy" about having to watch 50 RSS feeds or twitter uses to know when there's a new version of an app I might want, downloading it manually, and clicking next through their installer. Setting up a few config files and doing `pacman -Syu` is orders of magnitude easier.
      - cschwarm 17y ago
        Of course, it is easy. When you're already assuming something like RSS feeds for app updates exists, don't you think it's possible to have an application download them once a week and update all apps automatically? For an end-user, there's no difference to APT. Also, you seem to misunderstand the point. To have a third kind of distribution -- "stable foundation and recent apps" -- doesn't affect your choice of distribution, at all. When you're satisfied with Gentoo, you simply continue using it.
        ori_b 17y ago
        > When you're already assuming something like RSS feeds for app updates exists, don't you think it's possible to have an application download them once a week and update all apps automatically? So where can I get this program you speak of? Why doesn't it exist? (edit: and if it doesn't exist because you don't even have RSS feeds, isn't it even harder than watching those and manually installing?)
tedunangst 17y ago
"Linux" is only uniform if you stick exclusively to gnome or kde apps. Just try running firefox (gtk) on kde (qt). The file selector dialogs don't even look the same.
- ori_b 17y ago
  Sure, but at least it's uniform within a desktop environment. If you looked at what I was saying, Windows doesn't even give you that. Mac is better, even though it also has 2 gratuitously different available look-and-feels.
- psadauskas 17y ago
  Who cares? The purpose of a file selector is to select a file, not look like every other file selector in existence. Even on Windows, the Office file selector looks nothing like the Photoshop one, or the Firefox one, or the Notepad one. At least in open source, you can hack it however you want. In fact, its fairly simple to make Firefox use the KDE file picker: Enter "about:config" in the address bar, look for the "ui.allow_platform_file_picker" key and change its value to "false". ( http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/HOWTO_Integrate_Firefox_with_KDE#Appearance_Method_2:_alternate_gtk_dialog http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/HOWTO_Integrate_Firefox_with_KDE... ) Edit: I was incorrect, the method I linked won't make firefox use the KDE picker, just an alternate gtk picker. But there are ways that can be found with a little bit of googling.
access_denied 17y ago
Updating software packs, determining if source is reliable, studying source code and debugging are not done very often by office workers in fields like biz admin or design, to say the least.

by ori_b 17y ago

IsaacSchlueter 17y ago

It is this result of "good lazy" app developers that has helped move FOSS in the right direction, IMO. Aptitude and GTK are the best things to happen to Linux since Linus.

bad_user 17y ago

Having a central repository that handles version dependencies and upgrades ... is great. But let's be honest here: whenever a newer version of a software package is released, it can take months before it enters sid on Debian, or in Ubuntu, and these are the better-maintained distros. And if you want to distribute proprietary software, maintaining multiple packages for multiple distributions and multiple versions, is hell-like. And regarding interface guide lines, I do not agree that Linux apps have a standard. Quite the contrary.

psadauskas 17y ago
But that's the philosophy of those distros such as Debian, Ubunutu and Fedora: Don't upgrade anything except security patches between releases. If you want the bleeding edge packages, you need to install it yourself from an add-on repo (once you set it up, its just as easy as `apt-get install newpkg`. Or, pick a rolling-release distro that caters more towards having the latest packages available, such as Gentoo or Arch.
- cschwarm 17y ago
  That's just an explanation, not a reason. Why does it have to be like that? Why does Linux distributions fall in one of two categories: either "stable foundation and out-dated apps" or "unstable foundation and recent apps"? What many people want is a stable foundation and recent apps. This is easier to get with a decentral installation system.
  - psadauskas 17y ago
    Who's foundation? I'm a web developer, so to me, I want the latest ruby, apache, etc... However, a server admin might want the more "stable" versions of the same. I know that Gentoo, at least, has the facility to accomplish this. They have package masking, so you can specify exactly the packages you want to be kept on the bleeding edge. Taken a step further, you can set up your own "profile", and list exactly what version of each package in the system you want. Arch Linux provides something similar; you can list what versions a package shouldn't be upgraded past in a config file. I'm sorry, but there's nothing "easy" about having to watch 50 RSS feeds or twitter uses to know when there's a new version of an app I might want, downloading it manually, and clicking next through their installer. Setting up a few config files and doing `pacman -Syu` is orders of magnitude easier.
    - cschwarm 17y ago
      Of course, it is easy. When you're already assuming something like RSS feeds for app updates exists, don't you think it's possible to have an application download them once a week and update all apps automatically? For an end-user, there's no difference to APT. Also, you seem to misunderstand the point. To have a third kind of distribution -- "stable foundation and recent apps" -- doesn't affect your choice of distribution, at all. When you're satisfied with Gentoo, you simply continue using it.
      - ori_b 17y ago
        > When you're already assuming something like RSS feeds for app updates exists, don't you think it's possible to have an application download them once a week and update all apps automatically? So where can I get this program you speak of? Why doesn't it exist? (edit: and if it doesn't exist because you don't even have RSS feeds, isn't it even harder than watching those and manually installing?)

tedunangst 17y ago

"Linux" is only uniform if you stick exclusively to gnome or kde apps. Just try running firefox (gtk) on kde (qt). The file selector dialogs don't even look the same.

ori_b 17y ago
Sure, but at least it's uniform within a desktop environment. If you looked at what I was saying, Windows doesn't even give you that. Mac is better, even though it also has 2 gratuitously different available look-and-feels.
psadauskas 17y ago
Who cares? The purpose of a file selector is to select a file, not look like every other file selector in existence. Even on Windows, the Office file selector looks nothing like the Photoshop one, or the Firefox one, or the Notepad one. At least in open source, you can hack it however you want. In fact, its fairly simple to make Firefox use the KDE file picker: Enter "about:config" in the address bar, look for the "ui.allow_platform_file_picker" key and change its value to "false". ( http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/HOWTO_Integrate_Firefox_with_KDE#Appearance_Method_2:_alternate_gtk_dialog http://www.gentoo-wiki.info/HOWTO_Integrate_Firefox_with_KDE... ) Edit: I was incorrect, the method I linked won't make firefox use the KDE picker, just an alternate gtk picker. But there are ways that can be found with a little bit of googling.

access_denied 17y ago

Updating software packs, determining if source is reliable, studying source code and debugging are not done very often by office workers in fields like biz admin or design, to say the least.