8 ms·

About the Penny Arcade Job Posting

133 points by b4c0n 13y ago

throw7 13y ago
Any job where one is required to be "plugged" into the internet 24/7 is a red flag. He goes on and mentions that being able to take a hike in the mountains is out of the question. If your life is work...
- Pxtl 13y ago
  Reminds me of the infamous Office 365 tone-deaf infographic: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2013/nov13/11-06getitdone.aspx#infog http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2013/nov13/11-06ge... Doubly ironic given Krahulik's famous love for the Surface Pro, the flagship device of this new platform.
mkr-hn 13y ago
It's almost as if people with no knowledge of the situation didn't know what they were talking about and speculated angrily instead.
- theorique 13y ago
  On the Internet? Nonsense. Next, you'll be telling me that I'm not really getting a 10% finders fee from the $75M fortune of Oil Minister Louis N'Kornongo of Nigeria for helping him transfer the money to the USA. As if.
- acheron 13y ago
  Gotta drive those ad eyeballs somehow.
  - acheron 13y ago
    Downvotes? Come on. Manufactured controversy based on uninformed speculation to drive hits to ones blog is the entire business model of half the "news" sites out there. Is it impolitic to point that out?
    - icebraining 13y ago
      What news site are you talking about in this case?
    - asdasf 13y ago
      I'm still not sure if you are talking about PA or whatever blog pointed out what an exploitive job posting they put up.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- justinsteele 13y ago
  Nothing he wrote has changed my opinion about the ad or the position, except for the parts regarding his depression and lung issues, and how they handled it (well). Overall, it reinforced that they are interested in someone who is willing to take a below market rate, is a generalist in many arenas, and is willing to work 60-80 hours a week, including 24/7 on call. Honestly, breaking the job into 2 positions (no, they would not be reading r/aww all day, and if they were, you hired the wrong people) would make this SO much more enticing. It would eliminate the 24/7 on call (you could do every other week), you'd have someone to bounce ideas off, and if you hired the right 2 people, their expertise in the 4 'jobs' would likely be much higher than whoever is going to get the gig currently.
  - mkr-hn 13y ago
    I'm going to trust that he understands his desires, ambitions, and capabilities better than anyone reading that thread, the discussion around the Internet, or the job posting. This is not some naive kid fresh out of college being abused by a powerful corporation.
    - wvenable 13y ago
      Absolutely nothing he has said in this post has contradicted anything said about this position. He flat out states he is underpaid and has no work/life balance. The fact that he's ok with that is the problem!
      - Lewisham 13y ago
        It sounds like you are surprised that there are people who are not like you. There are lots of people in lots of companies that prefer working longer hours and maintaining their social circles at work. The author of the post says he's one of those guys, and he took a pay cut to work there. He worked at Amazon, he's not dumb and he's not being willfully exploited. So one must assume that he did it because he wanted to. He could have left long before now. Saying that he somehow has a problem because that's what he wants in life is pretty judgmental. Do I want to work that way? No. Do you? No. Does it mean he has a "problem" because that's what he wants? No.
- thomasz 13y ago
  Let's see, we have a job posting that promises you that your job will have founder level responsibilities that will destroy your social life, for an interns pay. And now we get a forum post from the poor sucker who confirms that the reality of this job is as brutal and exploitative as promised. But that's totally cool because he never felt taken advantage of because of the smooth atmosphere , the cool tech and the friendly colleagues. Looks like the Penny Arcade guys took a page from the game industries playbook.
- jonknee 13y ago
  ... And they got it right. The employee confirmed what was in the job posting and what people had issues with (so many different roles, ridiculous hours, low pay, etc). It's not that hard: Want a programmer? Hire one. Want a web developer? Hire one. Want a system administrator? Hire one. Hire two if you have any type of 24/7 on call requirement (it's not remotely reasonable to expect one individual to be on call 24/7 365). Then unless you want to get sued, set reasonable expectations of hours (2x full time is not reasonable).
  - wvenable 13y ago
    I disagree. In a small company, everyone takes on multiple roles -- so why can't a single person be a programmer, web developer, system administrator? I've done that job many times. The only issue is if the workload is more than one person can handle. In this case, the work sounds like it's only slightly more than a one-person job and it's unfortunate he's not paid accordingly.
    - Avshalom 13y ago
      Penny Arcade is not a small company, it just plays one on TV.
      - mkr-hn 13y ago
        The company is small. It's a handful of people in a small office. Influence is not closely tied to size with a business like PA.
    - itsameta4 13y ago
      Penny Arcade is not a small company - at least it shouldn't be. That's what people are saying.
    - swang 13y ago
      Generally you are required to take on multiple roles at a small company because there is no other choice. There are no funds to hire the proper people to do it. It's either do it or go bust. Penny Arcade is not a small company in that sense. They definitely _could_ hire the right 4 people to work there, but instead they want to just pay 1 person to do that job. While I am sure you were competent enough to do 3 jobs, you are probably not as good at all 3 as someone who focuses primarily on one of those roles. But you forget this is for 4 jobs, and they want 1 person to do all that within their regular bounds of a job where they expect you to be on call 24/7. Oh and they want to pay you below market rates to do all 4 of them. I think that is what every is angry about.
Glyptodon 13y ago
He doesn't seem to dispute that he basically gets paid less than someone who does all those things should... So what I'm missing is whether there's a legitimate reason for him to be paid below market considering the Penny Arcade seems quite successful. Though as one of the many people who's accepted supposedly below market pay, I can somewhat relate.
- robdrimmie 13y ago
  That sort of depends on your definition of "legitimate", but in my opinion, no. I am fully aware that I make below market pay. Almost everyone (except for my developer co-ops, who I need to pay above market to be competitive in the local market) at the not-for-profit I work for does. It's not something that it hidden but our revenue comes from government money and membership fees that is best applied towards fulfilling our mandate so from a community perspective standpoint there is some degree of necessity. There are other compensation factors though. There's some amount of profile enhancement (in a smallish pond), I've learned a ton, I get to work with a huge number of startups, I get to participate in any of the company-run events I want (and there's a lot). To me, those are legitimate reasons for me to accept a salary under market value. But if we were a for profit the equation changes dramatically. Salary is not the be all and end all for all (arguably most) people, and if it's within a certain percentage of market value, then other factors of compensation do make it worthwhile. Maybe you could get 10% more working in grey cubes but you wouldn't be working with those people, you wouldn't be part of a significant force in the geek culture world, and for some those trade offs are worth it. What makes it stink for me is that I feel like PA could afford market rates, and they're not entirely because they know they don't need to be competitive in that regard, and to me that feels exploitative. They have a huge crowd of people willing to sacrifice some financial gain to be part of them, and they're going to take advantage of that. It's reasonable from a business standpoint, I think it's even ethical, but it doesn't mean that it's a good thing.
- AsymetricCom 13y ago
  It's just another example of people abusing their power. Got name brand recognition? Use it to stick it to your workers. Prettying it up with bright primary colors and photoshop fades all you want, we can still see the reality behind the flowery show. I would like to believe that this guy enjoyed his job and it was a fair relationship. But that just doesn't ring as true. He's deluded himself into believing that he's working for a greater cause, the people who like Penny Arcade. It's not really a noble cause though is it?
hapless 13y ago
This post confirms that the job posting is exactly what it looks like: an exploitative horror-show * He speculates whether the job is worth a "lower salary" (and, given his admitted inexperience in the workforce, he probably has no idea what a market salary looks like) * "The ping-pong table is NOT a benefit" * He's on the "bottom of the goddamn ladder" and "reminded every day" edit: I'm getting a lot of flak for taking this out of context. This is a post on his employer's public forum, that they tweeted out on their corp accounts. It's not a stretch to read between the lines because this "joke" is so awkward and forced. I cannot imagine that it didn't have a double meaning. In other words, "ha ha only serious" * He wears "four hats," and does the job of "two people" so they can run "lean." * At some point his burnout was so bad (and so visible), his employers asked if they could "send [him] anywhere" It's really a little strange to read this post. It's obvious that he really, really likes his coworkers and really, really hates his job. He describes horrible things with soft, feel-good terms. The author seems to hope applicants go into it with open eyes: the new hire will be crapped on and underpaid while he keeps a laptop next to the bed to handle early-AM change requests. But your coworkers are really fun!
- DannoHung 13y ago
  The ladder comment is about the Ping-Pong tournaments regularly held in the office. From the comment it's pretty obvious this is a two person job and getting a single dev is a business mistake.
  - hapless 13y ago
    Given that this is posted on his current employers' public forum, I take the "bottom of the ladder" and "not a benefit" juxtaposition as a "ha ha only serious" kind of joke. There's no way that wasn't intended to have a double meaning.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - DannoHung 13y ago
      There is a way. The way in which you're completely misreading a joke about an office ping pong tournament.
roel_v 13y ago
How much money does this company make? Does their corporate structure require them to file balance sheets? I mean if you're doing something like this to support the site you love, I can understand (still not agree, but understand). But if it's just to make some owner/investors rich...
wvenable 13y ago
Nothing seems to contradict what anyone has said about this job: * "It is true that I am paid below market value" * "If I had had to apply for the job with the presently listed requirements, I might not have gotten the offer." * "Depending on the project load, I might spend 8 hours at the office and call it good, or I might stay til 10-midnight consistently for a couple weeks." Just because the person who currently does the job feels this is a great thing and all the people applying for the job feel it's a great thing doesn't make it great. I guess I'm old and tired of my peers devaluing their own skills and time.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
jonknee 13y ago
Apparently it wasn't just a poor attempt at humor--that job is ridiculous.
beachstartup 13y ago
the job he describes is at LEAST $125k/year + benefits + location and schedule flexibility i.e. work from home if you want, and you can leave to pick up the kids at 2pm. as long as the work gets done. possibly stock or options - depends on the company, but quite honestly i don't even view that as 'real' compensation for 90% of all cases. i can't even begin to know what the fuck a 'volunteer' Enforcer is, especially for a profitable company. quite frankly it sounds like the typical 20 foot pile of horse shit that only the games industry could come up with. and i've seen some really mind-bendingly exploitative behavior after being based here in LA for a decade. anything significantly less than the above salary + benefits, and you are being ripped. off. by. people. who. know. better. i know this because i have several senior devops guys on my staff who fit that description and have been with us for over 3 years. this is also what I used to make as a senior engineer before i started up my company as an owner/executive. people should be FAR AND AWAY your most expensive resource. with a few notable types of exceptions, if you pay your people less than your hosting provider or your rent or marketing, you're doing something very, very wrong, and it will catch up to you in some way or another. see: penny arcade job post.
- Lewisham 13y ago
  i can't even begin to know what the fuck a 'volunteer' Enforcer is, especially for a profitable company. sounds like a 20 foot pile of horse shit. Why don't you try using Google and looking it up before angrily speculating? The Enforcer system is what the use at Penny Arcade Expo. It's a volunteer system to help run the event, and in return you get to attend things when you're not on the roster. It's no different to all sorts of roles, be it grad students being a student volunteer to attend a conference (and if you want to talk about underpaid, grad student is where it's at) or teenagers picking up trash after the Glastonbury Music Festival. No-one is being pressganged into being an Enforcer, it sounds like a pretty sweet gig to me.
  - beachstartup 13y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_Expo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_Expo that's funny, i didn't see "non-profit" or "charity" anywhere on this page. you guys should consider updating it. i am angry because there is an ongoing, systematic monetary devaluation (and hence social devaluation, dot com billionaires notwithstanding) of all technical roles by people in our own industry. it pisses me right the fuck off and the games companies are at the forefront of the fuckedupedness and loss of dignity. you chain this fucking guy to a pager and pay him peanuts and harass him to the point where he needs to resign and then flippantly post another job posting with such unbelievably thinly veiled condescension and arrogance, and it's about time an industry called you out for it.
doe88 13y ago
blah blah blah. I'm leaving because I'm underpaid. blah blah blah.
- deletes 13y ago
  I downvoted you. I think completely justifiably. Is your type comment really appropriate for HN? Quote from the post: >>First things first - you may wonder, how could this job possibly be so good if I'm leaving it behind? No, I did not burn out. No, the conditions are not awful. I am leaving because I have always wanted to teach.<<
  - doe88 13y ago
    This is a free country you can downvote me as much as you want but you cannot distort facts by quoting half paragraphs. And facts are that that if he was paid enough he would have stayed longer at Penny Arcade in order to later fulfill his dream of teaching. > Doing so comfortably requires that before then, I need to put away a lot of money to support myself when I’m getting paid a truly ludicrous wage. It is true that I am paid below market value, but not so significantly as folks on the internet assume. I live quite comfortably on this salary, and while it’s less than I could make elsewhere, it’s not out of the bounds of reasonable expectation. But I want to accelerate my plans for teaching. So here we are. I love this company, but I have goals that won't be fulfilled by working there, so it's time to move on. TL;DR I'm leaving because I'm underpaid.
    - deletes 13y ago
      He is leaving because: -I want to accelerate my plans for teaching -I have goals that won't be fulfilled by working there -I need to put away a lot of money to support myself when I’m getting paid a truly ludicrous wage ||-> indicating he is getting paid well at PA( compared to the teching job ) and was able to amass money for the low paying job when he will be teaching. Reading is tech.
      - hatu 13y ago
agentultra 13y ago
So you like working for less-than-market rates and have no life other than work? Want to work for me? I suspect the answer is a flat, "No." Unless I was running a successful media company like PA there's nothing in it for you. What about it being PA makes it okay then? Unfortunately I'm not surprised by the job posting. In non-unionized media companies the labor relations are generally very poor. A friend of mine used to work in such a post-production audio studio as a junior engineer. They paid him practically nothing and waited as long as they could to pay his invoices. In return he lived to work for them and never received credit for anything. In contrast his sister worked in a larger post-production effects studio where the workers were unionized. She still has a job there afaik and is quite happy. Her brother left his gig when he was up to his eyeballs in debt and couldn't handle the hours anymore. It sucks but that's the free market for you.
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  The free market is sending you a price signal and telling you that you shouldn't go into this field. It's over-saturated. Unless you really think it will be emotionally rewarding, stay away. It sucks, but that's "the reality of what the people of Earth have demonstrated they want" (when they have to make tradeoffs against the rest of reality, anyway) for you.
- SheepSlapper 13y ago
  He says what made it okay in his case: "This job meant security, a huge opportunity to go out of my comfort zone and learn, and countless other 'soft' benefits I couldn't think of. And I got to work with people I truly enjoyed."
  - agentultra 13y ago
    I can't really speak for him but my junior audio engineer buddy liked his job too. It's still a craptastic job that ultimately goes no where. You don't retire from a job like that: you quit, move on and tell people about your glory days down the road when you have a real job.
lostlogin 13y ago
Marco has some thoughts on this posting. http://www.marco.org http://www.marco.org
- jacobquick 13y ago
  That isn't his response to the kid's post, it's his response to the original job posting, and it got a lot of points being posted on its own yesterday.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    That's what I meant, should have been clearer sorry. I searched on this thread for a link to it. I should have searched the actual site - obviously a Marco post would be there...
trimbo 13y ago
It was a great response until he got to the 80 hours thing. Why would you take a below market wage to do twice the work? Is there equity in penny arcade? Some kind of lucrative upside we don't know about?
Pxtl 13y ago
They're rock-stars looking for a digital roadie. The roadie doesn't care he's abused because he's "with the band". They need to admit to themselves that they didn't treat the previous guy right for the kind of work he put in. Honestly, given PA's history I'm not surprised by this whole situation. They seem like a great bunch of guys who suffer from some serious Aspie-myopia about how life works for everybody outside of their club, and they've had to fight enough trolls and lunatics online that they can't sort out the legitimate criticism from the noise anymore, so when they screw up they just double-down.
- robdrimmie 13y ago
  Why is it "Aspie-myopia"? People with Aspergers are entirely capable of understanding that other people have different thoughts, expectations, emotions, minds. They sometimes (it's a spectrum which means that not all have the same symptoms) have difficulty understanding others' mental state from body language and other direct social clues but they understand that people have different opinions. You are spreading misinformation, and potentially insulting people in a throw-away portion of your otherwise good point. You don't need to be on the spectrum to be myopic.
macspoofing 13y ago
The one (and only) problem I had with the posting was this line: >Salary: Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group. We’re more likely to spend less money on salary and invest that on making your day-to-day life at work better. That immediately jumped out at me. That came off so off-putting. If you're not a "money motivated group", that means you pay more, right, RIGHT? No, of course not. Again, the author probably didn't mean for it to come out the way it did, but it felt so sleazy, like they were trying to put one over the applicant. "We can't pay you a lot because we're not about money here". .. urgh. All the other stuff about work-life balance and multiple roles, I didn't have a problem with. This job is made for a single 20-something guy or girl who wants to hang out with the penny-arcade crew, not someone with kids and a spouse.
- kaonashi 13y ago
  Probably intended it to be more of a comment on the size of the budget and the percent allocated for the position than the size of the salary relative to the market. That said, having been involved in a similar set-up, being the lone guy holding up tech for a large organization is a type of hell I wish on no man.
doktrin 13y ago
Nothing about this job seems equitable. There appears to be literally 0 reward for making added sacrifices and taking on the additional duties called for. Financial gain? Nope. World class technological challenges? Still no. Work life balance? Obviously not. Solving meaningful problems? No. Name recognition or industry stepping stone? Maybe, but highly mitigated by the fact that any serious applicant would be qualified for more valuable positions elsewhere. Is this job squarely aimed at die hard PA fan-people? What about them as an organization is particularly exciting?
- lightbritefight 13y ago
  Im personally not interested, but PA is something of a cultural zeigiest in the same demographic as most of the people who would meet this skill set. They are a big name in gaming, running PA, PAX(the largest video game expo out there), and the childs play charity. They are considered leading commentators in gaming, being both insightful and involved with gaming for over a decade.
  - asdasf 13y ago
    I think it would be more accurate to say "as most of the people who wish they met this skill set". I don't know anyone who approaching meeting those requirements who thinks anything better than "meh, they made a couple funny comics over the years" about PA. You'll notice the PA guys themselves are technologically illiterate. Most of their fan base is too. They appeal to people who want to be labeled as gamers more so than they appeal to people who play games.
  - LordHumungous 13y ago
    They have zeitgeist in the gaming world, not the software engineering world. They aren't doing anything remotely cutting edge software wise. I don't see why an engineer would think it's such a special place to work, other than just because they like video games, and by extension Penny Arcade.
    - JamesArgo 13y ago
sbierwagen 13y ago
Sounds terrible.
johngalt 13y ago
Congrats Kenneth Kuan. If I ever meet you in person I'd buy you a beer and tell you it isn't always like this. Realistically PA needs at least two hires here. One ops guy responsible for IT/Sysadmin, and one dev. Both can crossover as much as needed. They can share the on-call duties. Either decide to reel-in the expectations on this position or hire two people to do it right.
- TWAndrews 13y ago
  Ultimately they'll have to, but not because of any outrage about under compensation. This is only possible for Mr. Kuan because he built the systems he maintains. The next person is going to have to maintain systems someone else built. That will be a lot harder, and my guess is ultimately impossible for one person.
  - Pxtl 13y ago
    ... oh God. I hadn't even thought of that. The PA guys were running a one-man show. This isn't going to just be "A system made by somebody else". This is going to be "An entire infrastructure made by one overworked dude who obviously had no time to document anything or make it neatly organized". Their entire infrastructure is organized and managed in this one guy's head. There will be at best a pile of notebooks and sticky-notes documenting things. Unless he suffers from a severe case of clinical OCD, there is approximately zero chance that the files, the code, the database, the servers, the jobs... anything is any condition to be handled by anything but That One Guy. This isn't even a two-man job. It's a 10 man job.
scrabble 13y ago
* If you want to work 80 or more hours * Prepare to have a laptop and some way of connecting to the internet with you at all times. Want to go on a hike somewhere there's no reception? Sorry, you can't. * They pushed out the launch, came and visited me in the hospital, brought me delicious Asian snacks and lent me a Vita to help pass the time. So 80 hours of work a week -- or more. Inability to travel or enjoy wilderness or even visit family if they don't have reception. And if you're in the hospital, maybe they will visit and lend you something relatively cheap that you can return later.
mephi5t0 13y ago
Erm. "..I wanted to teach but I needed money before that to put aside; and to make money I took a salary cut after Amazon job to work for PA. And then I work sometimes till midnight for weeks because they can hire more people but they won't. And you can't go hike and should be on call, always, forever and ever..." LOL what? For the company that is supposed to be cool and racks up money from PAX... I don't have words to express my thoughts. It's a huge whirlwind, thoughts quickly appear in my head and move in circles and I can't grab any of them to display here. Just wow!
bowlofpetunias 13y ago
Wow. Sounds an awful lot like the rationalizations of a cult member. The Kool-Aid is strong in this one.
bundy 13y ago
I think there's a MySQL DB or two somewhere in the back This line scared me the most...
jedrek 13y ago
Has it been said that this guy is the reason Penny Arcade wrote the ad they wrote? People treat us how we let them treat us, someone taught his bosses that it's OK to ask one employee to be your entire IT department. That it's OK to have them on call 24/7 and have him work a minimum of 8 hours a day (but up to 15-16h/day for months at a time), in exchange for friday lunch and the ability to play video games at work. I'm certain that the people he describes, those who leave at 5 to be with their families, each had a situation when they were pressured to stay late day after day and at some point just said, "no, I'm leaving". Anyway, Penny Arcade's human resource management obviously sucks. But hey, they had a guy doing the work of a 3-4 person team and for cheap to boot. Why shouldn't they expect to find someone else to pump and dump?
Legion 13y ago
The initial job post, to me, was very clearly written to scare some people off, in an attempt to reduce the tidal wave of responses down to a mere flood. If that flood of respondents doesn't treat their skills (or their life) as having any value, why should Penny Arcade? This isn't one of those crap IT jobs someone takes out of desperation for work. This is a job that a ton of people are going to be feverishly applying for and calling their "dream job". If their "dream" is to trade their skills and time for that level of compensation, who am I to start saying PA is in the wrong by not splitting it into two jobs?
- SheepSlapper 13y ago
  A lot of people commenting seem to think that salary is the only form of compensation in a job, as well. I'd gladly trade a few thousand dollars a year to be excited to go to work, with people I enjoy, instead of working a corporate gig where I'm miserable and working on boring projects.
joshguthrie 13y ago
Fuck this. No, actually, fuck YOU. Everyone out there who is going all white-knight on "Oh no, this is not a good situation yadda yadda, you're being exploited, abused,... You're in such abusive relationship that you don't even see it". The job posting was worded to be terrible just to ensure only the most motivated and willing would apply. Does this mean PA are looking for a slave? No, there are better ways to get yourselves a slave and a lot of startups are doing it without anyone batting an eyelash. Look around you: unpaid internships, low salaries that don't compute with the living costs in the area, all these talks of "sure, you start with a low salary but you'll get equity and stock-options",... This is the real bullshit happening around us every day. All of this talk about "he's working in awful conditions" when he's describing his happiness is making me sick. Who gave any of us the Judgement Stick to impose our views on other people? The real abuse Kenneth is getting is from anyone putting words he never said in his mouth. He's doing great stuff for a great company who SUPPORTS him whole-heartedly. Why is this crowd trying to disminish his proudness of being part of a family? We've broken the boundaries of the "9-to-5" job. We're beginning to see the myth of developers working only from the workplace crumbling in front of our eyes and I'm only expected to be at work during the day because we got a sales team whose job IS 9-to-5. Because in the end it's not about our capacity to seat 40 hours in an office but our capacity and desire to get stuff done. And some of us are burning with it, don't deny them. Yes we don't count our hours but what would be our alternatives? Go home while we're HAVING FUN? And I can't picture a workplace where I would be told "Okay, you did your thing. Go home and continue it tomorrow morning." I stay late because I like it, sometimes for the 1Gbps fiber, sometimes because there's still stuff I want to do. Yes, two people could do my job and we could share the hats. But we could also hire 50 people to share the hats and just produce even less. Stop hating and go slap the companies who really deserve it, all the one who boast their funding, business model, clients, w/ever... and think you're being "arrogant" when you ask for a decent salary.
- EdwardDiego 13y ago
  > No, actually, fuck YOU. Why so angry mate?
  - joshguthrie 13y ago

133 points by b4c0n 13y ago

Any job where one is required to be "plugged" into the internet 24/7 is a red flag. He goes on and mentions that being able to take a hike in the mountains is out of the question. If your life is work...

Pxtl 13y ago
Reminds me of the infamous Office 365 tone-deaf infographic: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2013/nov13/11-06getitdone.aspx#infog http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2013/nov13/11-06ge... Doubly ironic given Krahulik's famous love for the Surface Pro, the flagship device of this new platform.

mkr-hn 13y ago

It's almost as if people with no knowledge of the situation didn't know what they were talking about and speculated angrily instead.

theorique 13y ago
On the Internet? Nonsense. Next, you'll be telling me that I'm not really getting a 10% finders fee from the $75M fortune of Oil Minister Louis N'Kornongo of Nigeria for helping him transfer the money to the USA. As if.
acheron 13y ago
Gotta drive those ad eyeballs somehow.
- acheron 13y ago
  Downvotes? Come on. Manufactured controversy based on uninformed speculation to drive hits to ones blog is the entire business model of half the "news" sites out there. Is it impolitic to point that out?
  - icebraining 13y ago
    What news site are you talking about in this case?
  - asdasf 13y ago
    I'm still not sure if you are talking about PA or whatever blog pointed out what an exploitive job posting they put up.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
justinsteele 13y ago
Nothing he wrote has changed my opinion about the ad or the position, except for the parts regarding his depression and lung issues, and how they handled it (well). Overall, it reinforced that they are interested in someone who is willing to take a below market rate, is a generalist in many arenas, and is willing to work 60-80 hours a week, including 24/7 on call. Honestly, breaking the job into 2 positions (no, they would not be reading r/aww all day, and if they were, you hired the wrong people) would make this SO much more enticing. It would eliminate the 24/7 on call (you could do every other week), you'd have someone to bounce ideas off, and if you hired the right 2 people, their expertise in the 4 'jobs' would likely be much higher than whoever is going to get the gig currently.
- mkr-hn 13y ago
  I'm going to trust that he understands his desires, ambitions, and capabilities better than anyone reading that thread, the discussion around the Internet, or the job posting. This is not some naive kid fresh out of college being abused by a powerful corporation.
  - wvenable 13y ago
    Absolutely nothing he has said in this post has contradicted anything said about this position. He flat out states he is underpaid and has no work/life balance. The fact that he's ok with that is the problem!
    - Lewisham 13y ago
      It sounds like you are surprised that there are people who are not like you. There are lots of people in lots of companies that prefer working longer hours and maintaining their social circles at work. The author of the post says he's one of those guys, and he took a pay cut to work there. He worked at Amazon, he's not dumb and he's not being willfully exploited. So one must assume that he did it because he wanted to. He could have left long before now. Saying that he somehow has a problem because that's what he wants in life is pretty judgmental. Do I want to work that way? No. Do you? No. Does it mean he has a "problem" because that's what he wants? No.
thomasz 13y ago
Let's see, we have a job posting that promises you that your job will have founder level responsibilities that will destroy your social life, for an interns pay. And now we get a forum post from the poor sucker who confirms that the reality of this job is as brutal and exploitative as promised. But that's totally cool because he never felt taken advantage of because of the smooth atmosphere , the cool tech and the friendly colleagues. Looks like the Penny Arcade guys took a page from the game industries playbook.
jonknee 13y ago
... And they got it right. The employee confirmed what was in the job posting and what people had issues with (so many different roles, ridiculous hours, low pay, etc). It's not that hard: Want a programmer? Hire one. Want a web developer? Hire one. Want a system administrator? Hire one. Hire two if you have any type of 24/7 on call requirement (it's not remotely reasonable to expect one individual to be on call 24/7 365). Then unless you want to get sued, set reasonable expectations of hours (2x full time is not reasonable).
- wvenable 13y ago
  I disagree. In a small company, everyone takes on multiple roles -- so why can't a single person be a programmer, web developer, system administrator? I've done that job many times. The only issue is if the workload is more than one person can handle. In this case, the work sounds like it's only slightly more than a one-person job and it's unfortunate he's not paid accordingly.
  - Avshalom 13y ago
    Penny Arcade is not a small company, it just plays one on TV.
    - mkr-hn 13y ago
      The company is small. It's a handful of people in a small office. Influence is not closely tied to size with a business like PA.
  - itsameta4 13y ago
    Penny Arcade is not a small company - at least it shouldn't be. That's what people are saying.
  - swang 13y ago
    Generally you are required to take on multiple roles at a small company because there is no other choice. There are no funds to hire the proper people to do it. It's either do it or go bust. Penny Arcade is not a small company in that sense. They definitely _could_ hire the right 4 people to work there, but instead they want to just pay 1 person to do that job. While I am sure you were competent enough to do 3 jobs, you are probably not as good at all 3 as someone who focuses primarily on one of those roles. But you forget this is for 4 jobs, and they want 1 person to do all that within their regular bounds of a job where they expect you to be on call 24/7. Oh and they want to pay you below market rates to do all 4 of them. I think that is what every is angry about.

Glyptodon 13y ago

He doesn't seem to dispute that he basically gets paid less than someone who does all those things should... So what I'm missing is whether there's a legitimate reason for him to be paid below market considering the Penny Arcade seems quite successful. Though as one of the many people who's accepted supposedly below market pay, I can somewhat relate.

robdrimmie 13y ago
That sort of depends on your definition of "legitimate", but in my opinion, no. I am fully aware that I make below market pay. Almost everyone (except for my developer co-ops, who I need to pay above market to be competitive in the local market) at the not-for-profit I work for does. It's not something that it hidden but our revenue comes from government money and membership fees that is best applied towards fulfilling our mandate so from a community perspective standpoint there is some degree of necessity. There are other compensation factors though. There's some amount of profile enhancement (in a smallish pond), I've learned a ton, I get to work with a huge number of startups, I get to participate in any of the company-run events I want (and there's a lot). To me, those are legitimate reasons for me to accept a salary under market value. But if we were a for profit the equation changes dramatically. Salary is not the be all and end all for all (arguably most) people, and if it's within a certain percentage of market value, then other factors of compensation do make it worthwhile. Maybe you could get 10% more working in grey cubes but you wouldn't be working with those people, you wouldn't be part of a significant force in the geek culture world, and for some those trade offs are worth it. What makes it stink for me is that I feel like PA could afford market rates, and they're not entirely because they know they don't need to be competitive in that regard, and to me that feels exploitative. They have a huge crowd of people willing to sacrifice some financial gain to be part of them, and they're going to take advantage of that. It's reasonable from a business standpoint, I think it's even ethical, but it doesn't mean that it's a good thing.
AsymetricCom 13y ago
It's just another example of people abusing their power. Got name brand recognition? Use it to stick it to your workers. Prettying it up with bright primary colors and photoshop fades all you want, we can still see the reality behind the flowery show. I would like to believe that this guy enjoyed his job and it was a fair relationship. But that just doesn't ring as true. He's deluded himself into believing that he's working for a greater cause, the people who like Penny Arcade. It's not really a noble cause though is it?

hapless 13y ago

This post confirms that the job posting is exactly what it looks like: an exploitative horror-show * He speculates whether the job is worth a "lower salary" (and, given his admitted inexperience in the workforce, he probably has no idea what a market salary looks like) * "The ping-pong table is NOT a benefit" * He's on the "bottom of the goddamn ladder" and "reminded every day" edit: I'm getting a lot of flak for taking this out of context. This is a post on his employer's public forum, that they tweeted out on their corp accounts. It's not a stretch to read between the lines because this "joke" is so awkward and forced. I cannot imagine that it didn't have a double meaning. In other words, "ha ha only serious" * He wears "four hats," and does the job of "two people" so they can run "lean." * At some point his burnout was so bad (and so visible), his employers asked if they could "send [him] anywhere" It's really a little strange to read this post. It's obvious that he really, really likes his coworkers and really, really hates his job. He describes horrible things with soft, feel-good terms. The author seems to hope applicants go into it with open eyes: the new hire will be crapped on and underpaid while he keeps a laptop next to the bed to handle early-AM change requests. But your coworkers are really fun!

DannoHung 13y ago
The ladder comment is about the Ping-Pong tournaments regularly held in the office. From the comment it's pretty obvious this is a two person job and getting a single dev is a business mistake.
- hapless 13y ago
  Given that this is posted on his current employers' public forum, I take the "bottom of the ladder" and "not a benefit" juxtaposition as a "ha ha only serious" kind of joke. There's no way that wasn't intended to have a double meaning.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - DannoHung 13y ago
    There is a way. The way in which you're completely misreading a joke about an office ping pong tournament.

roel_v 13y ago

How much money does this company make? Does their corporate structure require them to file balance sheets? I mean if you're doing something like this to support the site you love, I can understand (still not agree, but understand). But if it's just to make some owner/investors rich...

wvenable 13y ago

Nothing seems to contradict what anyone has said about this job: * "It is true that I am paid below market value" * "If I had had to apply for the job with the presently listed requirements, I might not have gotten the offer." * "Depending on the project load, I might spend 8 hours at the office and call it good, or I might stay til 10-midnight consistently for a couple weeks." Just because the person who currently does the job feels this is a great thing and all the people applying for the job feel it's a great thing doesn't make it great. I guess I'm old and tired of my peers devaluing their own skills and time.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

jonknee 13y ago

Apparently it wasn't just a poor attempt at humor--that job is ridiculous.

beachstartup 13y ago

the job he describes is at LEAST $125k/year + benefits + location and schedule flexibility i.e. work from home if you want, and you can leave to pick up the kids at 2pm. as long as the work gets done. possibly stock or options - depends on the company, but quite honestly i don't even view that as 'real' compensation for 90% of all cases. i can't even begin to know what the fuck a 'volunteer' Enforcer is, especially for a profitable company. quite frankly it sounds like the typical 20 foot pile of horse shit that only the games industry could come up with. and i've seen some really mind-bendingly exploitative behavior after being based here in LA for a decade. anything significantly less than the above salary + benefits, and you are being ripped. off. by. people. who. know. better. i know this because i have several senior devops guys on my staff who fit that description and have been with us for over 3 years. this is also what I used to make as a senior engineer before i started up my company as an owner/executive. people should be FAR AND AWAY your most expensive resource. with a few notable types of exceptions, if you pay your people less than your hosting provider or your rent or marketing, you're doing something very, very wrong, and it will catch up to you in some way or another. see: penny arcade job post.

Lewisham 13y ago
i can't even begin to know what the fuck a 'volunteer' Enforcer is, especially for a profitable company. sounds like a 20 foot pile of horse shit. Why don't you try using Google and looking it up before angrily speculating? The Enforcer system is what the use at Penny Arcade Expo. It's a volunteer system to help run the event, and in return you get to attend things when you're not on the roster. It's no different to all sorts of roles, be it grad students being a student volunteer to attend a conference (and if you want to talk about underpaid, grad student is where it's at) or teenagers picking up trash after the Glastonbury Music Festival. No-one is being pressganged into being an Enforcer, it sounds like a pretty sweet gig to me.
- beachstartup 13y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_Expo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_Expo that's funny, i didn't see "non-profit" or "charity" anywhere on this page. you guys should consider updating it. i am angry because there is an ongoing, systematic monetary devaluation (and hence social devaluation, dot com billionaires notwithstanding) of all technical roles by people in our own industry. it pisses me right the fuck off and the games companies are at the forefront of the fuckedupedness and loss of dignity. you chain this fucking guy to a pager and pay him peanuts and harass him to the point where he needs to resign and then flippantly post another job posting with such unbelievably thinly veiled condescension and arrogance, and it's about time an industry called you out for it.

doe88 13y ago

blah blah blah. I'm leaving because I'm underpaid. blah blah blah.

deletes 13y ago
I downvoted you. I think completely justifiably. Is your type comment really appropriate for HN? Quote from the post: >>First things first - you may wonder, how could this job possibly be so good if I'm leaving it behind? No, I did not burn out. No, the conditions are not awful. I am leaving because I have always wanted to teach.<<
- doe88 13y ago
  This is a free country you can downvote me as much as you want but you cannot distort facts by quoting half paragraphs. And facts are that that if he was paid enough he would have stayed longer at Penny Arcade in order to later fulfill his dream of teaching. > Doing so comfortably requires that before then, I need to put away a lot of money to support myself when I’m getting paid a truly ludicrous wage. It is true that I am paid below market value, but not so significantly as folks on the internet assume. I live quite comfortably on this salary, and while it’s less than I could make elsewhere, it’s not out of the bounds of reasonable expectation. But I want to accelerate my plans for teaching. So here we are. I love this company, but I have goals that won't be fulfilled by working there, so it's time to move on. TL;DR I'm leaving because I'm underpaid.
  - deletes 13y ago
    He is leaving because: -I want to accelerate my plans for teaching -I have goals that won't be fulfilled by working there -I need to put away a lot of money to support myself when I’m getting paid a truly ludicrous wage ||-> indicating he is getting paid well at PA( compared to the teching job ) and was able to amass money for the low paying job when he will be teaching. Reading is tech.
    - hatu 13y ago

agentultra 13y ago

So you like working for less-than-market rates and have no life other than work? Want to work for me? I suspect the answer is a flat, "No." Unless I was running a successful media company like PA there's nothing in it for you. What about it being PA makes it okay then? Unfortunately I'm not surprised by the job posting. In non-unionized media companies the labor relations are generally very poor. A friend of mine used to work in such a post-production audio studio as a junior engineer. They paid him practically nothing and waited as long as they could to pay his invoices. In return he lived to work for them and never received credit for anything. In contrast his sister worked in a larger post-production effects studio where the workers were unionized. She still has a job there afaik and is quite happy. Her brother left his gig when he was up to his eyeballs in debt and couldn't handle the hours anymore. It sucks but that's the free market for you.

fennecfoxen 13y ago
The free market is sending you a price signal and telling you that you shouldn't go into this field. It's over-saturated. Unless you really think it will be emotionally rewarding, stay away. It sucks, but that's "the reality of what the people of Earth have demonstrated they want" (when they have to make tradeoffs against the rest of reality, anyway) for you.
SheepSlapper 13y ago
He says what made it okay in his case: "This job meant security, a huge opportunity to go out of my comfort zone and learn, and countless other 'soft' benefits I couldn't think of. And I got to work with people I truly enjoyed."
- agentultra 13y ago
  I can't really speak for him but my junior audio engineer buddy liked his job too. It's still a craptastic job that ultimately goes no where. You don't retire from a job like that: you quit, move on and tell people about your glory days down the road when you have a real job.

lostlogin 13y ago

Marco has some thoughts on this posting. http://www.marco.org http://www.marco.org

jacobquick 13y ago
That isn't his response to the kid's post, it's his response to the original job posting, and it got a lot of points being posted on its own yesterday.
- lostlogin 13y ago
  That's what I meant, should have been clearer sorry. I searched on this thread for a link to it. I should have searched the actual site - obviously a Marco post would be there...

trimbo 13y ago

It was a great response until he got to the 80 hours thing. Why would you take a below market wage to do twice the work? Is there equity in penny arcade? Some kind of lucrative upside we don't know about?

Pxtl 13y ago

They're rock-stars looking for a digital roadie. The roadie doesn't care he's abused because he's "with the band". They need to admit to themselves that they didn't treat the previous guy right for the kind of work he put in. Honestly, given PA's history I'm not surprised by this whole situation. They seem like a great bunch of guys who suffer from some serious Aspie-myopia about how life works for everybody outside of their club, and they've had to fight enough trolls and lunatics online that they can't sort out the legitimate criticism from the noise anymore, so when they screw up they just double-down.

robdrimmie 13y ago
Why is it "Aspie-myopia"? People with Aspergers are entirely capable of understanding that other people have different thoughts, expectations, emotions, minds. They sometimes (it's a spectrum which means that not all have the same symptoms) have difficulty understanding others' mental state from body language and other direct social clues but they understand that people have different opinions. You are spreading misinformation, and potentially insulting people in a throw-away portion of your otherwise good point. You don't need to be on the spectrum to be myopic.

macspoofing 13y ago

The one (and only) problem I had with the posting was this line: >Salary: Negotiable, but you should know up front we’re not a terribly money-motivated group. We’re more likely to spend less money on salary and invest that on making your day-to-day life at work better. That immediately jumped out at me. That came off so off-putting. If you're not a "money motivated group", that means you pay more, right, RIGHT? No, of course not. Again, the author probably didn't mean for it to come out the way it did, but it felt so sleazy, like they were trying to put one over the applicant. "We can't pay you a lot because we're not about money here". .. urgh. All the other stuff about work-life balance and multiple roles, I didn't have a problem with. This job is made for a single 20-something guy or girl who wants to hang out with the penny-arcade crew, not someone with kids and a spouse.

kaonashi 13y ago
Probably intended it to be more of a comment on the size of the budget and the percent allocated for the position than the size of the salary relative to the market. That said, having been involved in a similar set-up, being the lone guy holding up tech for a large organization is a type of hell I wish on no man.

doktrin 13y ago

Nothing about this job seems equitable. There appears to be literally 0 reward for making added sacrifices and taking on the additional duties called for. Financial gain? Nope. World class technological challenges? Still no. Work life balance? Obviously not. Solving meaningful problems? No. Name recognition or industry stepping stone? Maybe, but highly mitigated by the fact that any serious applicant would be qualified for more valuable positions elsewhere. Is this job squarely aimed at die hard PA fan-people? What about them as an organization is particularly exciting?

lightbritefight 13y ago
Im personally not interested, but PA is something of a cultural zeigiest in the same demographic as most of the people who would meet this skill set. They are a big name in gaming, running PA, PAX(the largest video game expo out there), and the childs play charity. They are considered leading commentators in gaming, being both insightful and involved with gaming for over a decade.
- asdasf 13y ago
  I think it would be more accurate to say "as most of the people who wish they met this skill set". I don't know anyone who approaching meeting those requirements who thinks anything better than "meh, they made a couple funny comics over the years" about PA. You'll notice the PA guys themselves are technologically illiterate. Most of their fan base is too. They appeal to people who want to be labeled as gamers more so than they appeal to people who play games.
- LordHumungous 13y ago
  They have zeitgeist in the gaming world, not the software engineering world. They aren't doing anything remotely cutting edge software wise. I don't see why an engineer would think it's such a special place to work, other than just because they like video games, and by extension Penny Arcade.
  - JamesArgo 13y ago

sbierwagen 13y ago

Sounds terrible.

johngalt 13y ago

Congrats Kenneth Kuan. If I ever meet you in person I'd buy you a beer and tell you it isn't always like this. Realistically PA needs at least two hires here. One ops guy responsible for IT/Sysadmin, and one dev. Both can crossover as much as needed. They can share the on-call duties. Either decide to reel-in the expectations on this position or hire two people to do it right.

TWAndrews 13y ago
Ultimately they'll have to, but not because of any outrage about under compensation. This is only possible for Mr. Kuan because he built the systems he maintains. The next person is going to have to maintain systems someone else built. That will be a lot harder, and my guess is ultimately impossible for one person.
- Pxtl 13y ago
  ... oh God. I hadn't even thought of that. The PA guys were running a one-man show. This isn't going to just be "A system made by somebody else". This is going to be "An entire infrastructure made by one overworked dude who obviously had no time to document anything or make it neatly organized". Their entire infrastructure is organized and managed in this one guy's head. There will be at best a pile of notebooks and sticky-notes documenting things. Unless he suffers from a severe case of clinical OCD, there is approximately zero chance that the files, the code, the database, the servers, the jobs... anything is any condition to be handled by anything but That One Guy. This isn't even a two-man job. It's a 10 man job.

scrabble 13y ago

* If you want to work 80 or more hours * Prepare to have a laptop and some way of connecting to the internet with you at all times. Want to go on a hike somewhere there's no reception? Sorry, you can't. * They pushed out the launch, came and visited me in the hospital, brought me delicious Asian snacks and lent me a Vita to help pass the time. So 80 hours of work a week -- or more. Inability to travel or enjoy wilderness or even visit family if they don't have reception. And if you're in the hospital, maybe they will visit and lend you something relatively cheap that you can return later.

mephi5t0 13y ago

Erm. "..I wanted to teach but I needed money before that to put aside; and to make money I took a salary cut after Amazon job to work for PA. And then I work sometimes till midnight for weeks because they can hire more people but they won't. And you can't go hike and should be on call, always, forever and ever..." LOL what? For the company that is supposed to be cool and racks up money from PAX... I don't have words to express my thoughts. It's a huge whirlwind, thoughts quickly appear in my head and move in circles and I can't grab any of them to display here. Just wow!

bowlofpetunias 13y ago

Wow. Sounds an awful lot like the rationalizations of a cult member. The Kool-Aid is strong in this one.

bundy 13y ago

I think there's a MySQL DB or two somewhere in the back This line scared me the most...

jedrek 13y ago

Has it been said that this guy is the reason Penny Arcade wrote the ad they wrote? People treat us how we let them treat us, someone taught his bosses that it's OK to ask one employee to be your entire IT department. That it's OK to have them on call 24/7 and have him work a minimum of 8 hours a day (but up to 15-16h/day for months at a time), in exchange for friday lunch and the ability to play video games at work. I'm certain that the people he describes, those who leave at 5 to be with their families, each had a situation when they were pressured to stay late day after day and at some point just said, "no, I'm leaving". Anyway, Penny Arcade's human resource management obviously sucks. But hey, they had a guy doing the work of a 3-4 person team and for cheap to boot. Why shouldn't they expect to find someone else to pump and dump?

Legion 13y ago

The initial job post, to me, was very clearly written to scare some people off, in an attempt to reduce the tidal wave of responses down to a mere flood. If that flood of respondents doesn't treat their skills (or their life) as having any value, why should Penny Arcade? This isn't one of those crap IT jobs someone takes out of desperation for work. This is a job that a ton of people are going to be feverishly applying for and calling their "dream job". If their "dream" is to trade their skills and time for that level of compensation, who am I to start saying PA is in the wrong by not splitting it into two jobs?

SheepSlapper 13y ago
A lot of people commenting seem to think that salary is the only form of compensation in a job, as well. I'd gladly trade a few thousand dollars a year to be excited to go to work, with people I enjoy, instead of working a corporate gig where I'm miserable and working on boring projects.

joshguthrie 13y ago

Fuck this. No, actually, fuck YOU. Everyone out there who is going all white-knight on "Oh no, this is not a good situation yadda yadda, you're being exploited, abused,... You're in such abusive relationship that you don't even see it". The job posting was worded to be terrible just to ensure only the most motivated and willing would apply. Does this mean PA are looking for a slave? No, there are better ways to get yourselves a slave and a lot of startups are doing it without anyone batting an eyelash. Look around you: unpaid internships, low salaries that don't compute with the living costs in the area, all these talks of "sure, you start with a low salary but you'll get equity and stock-options",... This is the real bullshit happening around us every day. All of this talk about "he's working in awful conditions" when he's describing his happiness is making me sick. Who gave any of us the Judgement Stick to impose our views on other people? The real abuse Kenneth is getting is from anyone putting words he never said in his mouth. He's doing great stuff for a great company who SUPPORTS him whole-heartedly. Why is this crowd trying to disminish his proudness of being part of a family? We've broken the boundaries of the "9-to-5" job. We're beginning to see the myth of developers working only from the workplace crumbling in front of our eyes and I'm only expected to be at work during the day because we got a sales team whose job IS 9-to-5. Because in the end it's not about our capacity to seat 40 hours in an office but our capacity and desire to get stuff done. And some of us are burning with it, don't deny them. Yes we don't count our hours but what would be our alternatives? Go home while we're HAVING FUN? And I can't picture a workplace where I would be told "Okay, you did your thing. Go home and continue it tomorrow morning." I stay late because I like it, sometimes for the 1Gbps fiber, sometimes because there's still stuff I want to do. Yes, two people could do my job and we could share the hats. But we could also hire 50 people to share the hats and just produce even less. Stop hating and go slap the companies who really deserve it, all the one who boast their funding, business model, clients, w/ever... and think you're being "arrogant" when you ask for a decent salary.

EdwardDiego 13y ago
> No, actually, fuck YOU. Why so angry mate?
- joshguthrie 13y ago