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Great, 4 of the top spots taken up by Firefox, PHP, Wireshark, and Virtualbox release notes. I know we've had this debate before, but I don't see why anyone wa

by tsally 17y ago

Great, 4 of the top spots taken up by Firefox, PHP, Wireshark, and Virtualbox release notes. I know we've had this debate before, but I don't see why anyone wants 15% of their news to be release notes. If I care about these projects (and I do), I'll subscribe to a related RSS feed or mailing list. The only possible benefit I see is some useful discussion about new features, but honestly that's hardley enough benefit to compensate. I've only seen the volume of release notes go up in the past month. I don't think we should reward the people that post them with karma. That will just encourage newer users to post more release notes for more and more tangentially related products. I wouldn't be suprised to see some scripts pop up that automatically post release notes of significant projects (as we've seen in the past with pg's essays). Heck, even if we restricted outselves to release notes of software used by YC companies, we'd still be overwhelmed. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but honestly we can do better. EDIT: For those claiming that they are in it for the dicussion, point me to any useful discussion so far in any of the 4 mentioned stories. As of this writing I count 2 or 3 useful comments, and maybe 1 useful discussion. So I don't buy it. Rephrasing the release notes certainly doesn't count. Firefox: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680853 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680853 Virtualbox: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680692 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680692 PHP: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680649 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680649 Wireshark: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680286 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=680286

w1ntermute 17y ago
Well, these tools are essential to many hackers, so the posts are definitely relevant to HN. IMO, it makes much more sense to view all such news in a central location (i.e., HN), rather than subscribing to individual projects' RSS feeds, where one would also be notified of developmental releases.
- tsally 17y ago
  I can count over 100 tools essential to many hackers. The *nix userland alone is certainly several hundred. How about the release notes for all the languages we use? Or perhapes the editors and IDEs? Also, if you want one central location, I suggest an RSS reader. And if you're worried about volume, many readers have filter functionality as well.
  - socratees 17y ago
    Yeah, but the HN community follows the development of browsers, internet software etc., with special attention. So it is essential that we discuss our thoughts about the software that matters to us most.
    - shpxnvz 17y ago
      Wouldn't it make more sense then to have a post about a specific new feature/change/bug of the software in question, rather than a general announcement?
      - w1ntermute 17y ago
        The general announcement provides a page on which we can start threaded discussions on specific features, which can be quite useful, especially since many of the features significantly impact one another.
      - randallsquared 17y ago
        That would make tsally's problem worse, since every significant new feature would have a spot on HN, rather than having all related features grouped under a few spots.
  - w1ntermute 17y ago
    I can count over 100 tools essential to many hackers. So can I, but few come to my mind as swiftly as Firefox. It (with the aid of Firebug) is an invaluable tool for hacking on web sites. I know several people (including myself) who use it for that very purpose even if they do not use it as their primary browser. Firefox definitely stands out among the crowd of myriad hacker tools.
- olefoo 17y ago
  Shouldn't your central location be your rss reader? Most of the projects you mention have low-traffic announce feeds that only post on release. You are basically demanding that a scarce public resource (HN front page) be used up to satisfy a need you could take care of on your own. It's kind of humbling to see the tragedy of the commons playing out so clearly here.
  - yangyang 17y ago
    Perhaps I'm unusual, but I find the dicussion is often as interesting as the link (perhaps not for this item :-). And you don't get that on an announcements RSS feed.
  - w1ntermute 17y ago
    It is not just "my" need that is being satisfied. Clearly, at least 73 (the current number of votes) other hackers find this information (and like yangyang said, a place to converse about it) useful. The "scarce public resource" is being used in the way that would satisfy the needs of the largest number of hackers. That said, you needn't worry about HN being polluted with release notes. It just so happened that several major pieces of software had releases today. This is most definitely not a daily occurrence.
tome 17y ago
I'm pleased to see this Firefox story, and the VirtualBox one, because I use both pieces of software and I'm interested in the opinions and discussions of other HN users, because such conversations are often intelligent and useful.
gabrielroth 17y ago
The way you feel about new software releases taking up the top spots on HN? That's the way I feel about comments arguing that something doesn't belong on HN. (See also http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
- tsally 17y ago
  Comments aren't even comparable to stories in terms of signal to noise ratio. Also, I'm not happy about the fact that I violated the guidelines, but I felt it necessary.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
IsaacSchlueter 17y ago
If you don't like it, flag it. It IS an unpopular opinion, because whining is always unpopular. I downvoted your comment. It is not well reasoned, or even properly contrary. It's whiny and weak. Please don't do this again. I prefer to see these articles. Apparently 40 or so people agree with me as of writing this comment. I'm not "rewarding these users with karma", I'm expressing my desire to be alerted of new Firefox versions when I check HN.
- tsally 17y ago
  I downvoted your comment. It is not well reasoned, or even properly contrary. It's whiny and weak. Please don't do this again. Obviously I don't believe my comment is whiny and weak, but I'll take whiny and weak over condescending and abrasive any day. Whatever makes you think you deserve to talk about my opinions in such a way, you haven't earned it. It's also not what this site is about. I will say however, in the spirit of your comment, I've removed the part about downvoting.
ghshephard 17y ago
How about we limit it to 1000 application/utility/developer notification to 1 Celebrity passing away notification? And honestly - Firefox, Wireshark, PHP, Virtualbox are pretty important, do not get released frequently, and the _only_ place I heard about them being released (and I"m a major news junkie) was at HN. Would you believe me if I told you that I seemed to have note of MJ's death on other web sites (and we still felt it necessary to post it here as well) Techcrunch, who _specializes_ in discussing App Launches didn't mention these four (that I could see, they might be buried somewhere) primarily because they are more hacker related, and don't apply to their general audience. Let's not get too hyper critical here on HN like some editors do on Wikipedia and decide that the only relevant content that should be posted is that which meets our own approval, and realize that there is a broad hacker community for whom the release of Firefox, Virtualbox, PHP and Wireshark should all be important events.
- tsally 17y ago
  We're certainly on the same page with some of the celebrity stuff. I also agree with you that they are important to the broader hacker community. I'm just convinced that the volume of important events will become overwhelming if trends continue. It is not my intention to minimize the importance of the software.

by tsally 17y ago

w1ntermute 17y ago

Well, these tools are essential to many hackers, so the posts are definitely relevant to HN. IMO, it makes much more sense to view all such news in a central location (i.e., HN), rather than subscribing to individual projects' RSS feeds, where one would also be notified of developmental releases.

tsally 17y ago
I can count over 100 tools essential to many hackers. The *nix userland alone is certainly several hundred. How about the release notes for all the languages we use? Or perhapes the editors and IDEs? Also, if you want one central location, I suggest an RSS reader. And if you're worried about volume, many readers have filter functionality as well.
- socratees 17y ago
  Yeah, but the HN community follows the development of browsers, internet software etc., with special attention. So it is essential that we discuss our thoughts about the software that matters to us most.
  - shpxnvz 17y ago
    Wouldn't it make more sense then to have a post about a specific new feature/change/bug of the software in question, rather than a general announcement?
    - w1ntermute 17y ago
      The general announcement provides a page on which we can start threaded discussions on specific features, which can be quite useful, especially since many of the features significantly impact one another.
    - randallsquared 17y ago
      That would make tsally's problem worse, since every significant new feature would have a spot on HN, rather than having all related features grouped under a few spots.
- w1ntermute 17y ago
  I can count over 100 tools essential to many hackers. So can I, but few come to my mind as swiftly as Firefox. It (with the aid of Firebug) is an invaluable tool for hacking on web sites. I know several people (including myself) who use it for that very purpose even if they do not use it as their primary browser. Firefox definitely stands out among the crowd of myriad hacker tools.
olefoo 17y ago
Shouldn't your central location be your rss reader? Most of the projects you mention have low-traffic announce feeds that only post on release. You are basically demanding that a scarce public resource (HN front page) be used up to satisfy a need you could take care of on your own. It's kind of humbling to see the tragedy of the commons playing out so clearly here.
- yangyang 17y ago
  Perhaps I'm unusual, but I find the dicussion is often as interesting as the link (perhaps not for this item :-). And you don't get that on an announcements RSS feed.
- w1ntermute 17y ago
  It is not just "my" need that is being satisfied. Clearly, at least 73 (the current number of votes) other hackers find this information (and like yangyang said, a place to converse about it) useful. The "scarce public resource" is being used in the way that would satisfy the needs of the largest number of hackers. That said, you needn't worry about HN being polluted with release notes. It just so happened that several major pieces of software had releases today. This is most definitely not a daily occurrence.

tome 17y ago

I'm pleased to see this Firefox story, and the VirtualBox one, because I use both pieces of software and I'm interested in the opinions and discussions of other HN users, because such conversations are often intelligent and useful.

gabrielroth 17y ago

The way you feel about new software releases taking up the top spots on HN? That's the way I feel about comments arguing that something doesn't belong on HN. (See also http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

tsally 17y ago
Comments aren't even comparable to stories in terms of signal to noise ratio. Also, I'm not happy about the fact that I violated the guidelines, but I felt it necessary.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]

IsaacSchlueter 17y ago

If you don't like it, flag it. It IS an unpopular opinion, because whining is always unpopular. I downvoted your comment. It is not well reasoned, or even properly contrary. It's whiny and weak. Please don't do this again. I prefer to see these articles. Apparently 40 or so people agree with me as of writing this comment. I'm not "rewarding these users with karma", I'm expressing my desire to be alerted of new Firefox versions when I check HN.

tsally 17y ago
I downvoted your comment. It is not well reasoned, or even properly contrary. It's whiny and weak. Please don't do this again. Obviously I don't believe my comment is whiny and weak, but I'll take whiny and weak over condescending and abrasive any day. Whatever makes you think you deserve to talk about my opinions in such a way, you haven't earned it. It's also not what this site is about. I will say however, in the spirit of your comment, I've removed the part about downvoting.

ghshephard 17y ago

How about we limit it to 1000 application/utility/developer notification to 1 Celebrity passing away notification? And honestly - Firefox, Wireshark, PHP, Virtualbox are pretty important, do not get released frequently, and the _only_ place I heard about them being released (and I"m a major news junkie) was at HN. Would you believe me if I told you that I seemed to have note of MJ's death on other web sites (and we still felt it necessary to post it here as well) Techcrunch, who _specializes_ in discussing App Launches didn't mention these four (that I could see, they might be buried somewhere) primarily because they are more hacker related, and don't apply to their general audience. Let's not get too hyper critical here on HN like some editors do on Wikipedia and decide that the only relevant content that should be posted is that which meets our own approval, and realize that there is a broad hacker community for whom the release of Firefox, Virtualbox, PHP and Wireshark should all be important events.

tsally 17y ago
We're certainly on the same page with some of the celebrity stuff. I also agree with you that they are important to the broader hacker community. I'm just convinced that the volume of important events will become overwhelming if trends continue. It is not my intention to minimize the importance of the software.