4 ms·

"you know what’s even more rare? A guy who can write excellent code in several disparate languages, manage multiple different server installs, administrate data

"you know what’s even more rare? A guy who can write excellent code in several disparate languages, manage multiple different server installs, administrate databases, and configure office firewalls." Is that really so hard to find? I might be selling myself short... (I actually thought I'm worth less on the marketplace by being a "generalist")

saraid216 13y ago
Most tech companies have an entire engineering department with sub-divisions in order to get each of these roles done. If you can fulfill four jobs by yourself, then you should be getting paid for four jobs. In Seattle terms, that should be north of 200k annual.
- andrewingram 13y ago
  There's a difference between being able to do 4 jobs well, and being able to do 4 jobs well at the same time. I can design and code, but I rarely attempt to do both on the same day, because context switching is hard work.
- yarou 13y ago
  And yet, you'll find that the position probably pays less than even 1/4 of the value generated. Labor hasn't evolved much since the days of the robber barons. Employment should be a contract between equals, not an instrument of subservience. Unfortunately, the meme of exploitative employment reigns supreme today, globally.
jmccree 13y ago
It's hard enough to find someone who can write excellent code in one language. If you can also manage servers, do DBA work, and configure firewalls/networking equipment, you are actually very valuable to the right team/client.
asdasf 13y ago
Yes. And of the small number of people who believe they can do that, 99% of them can not.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  How do I tell? (nod to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)
  - nerfhammer 13y ago
    The DKE means people rate themselves closer to average for both those below average and above average. But people below average still think they are below those at the top, just not by the amount they think.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      So if I think I'm above average, I'm good?
      - nerfhammer 13y ago
        No, people tend to think they are above average at any task they spend time on. That's a different cognitive bias.
        dllthomas 13y ago
        But my point, reinforced by the numbers I gave, is that there is overlap in the distributions between "how good I think I am" for those actually at the bottom and those actually at the top. There may well be other cognitive biases at play.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - dllthomas 13y ago
jblow 13y ago
What is described is something toward the top end of basic competence. The only reason someone would think this is crazy is if they have been hanging around bad engineers and / or administrators. That said, most engineers / administrators are pretty mediocre, especially these days now that so many more people are doing it. So. I mean, if "managing office firewalls" is on someone's list of things that are impressive, maybe that person does not have a clear view of the problem space. But I should not even be giving the article so much attention as this. It's clear the author is confused. At first he talks about how rare and crazy it is to find someone who can do this, but then, contradictorily, he laments that PA will get tons of applicants who can do the job. Well, guy, which is it? They can't both be true. All that is going on here is that someone had a negative reaction to the job posting and is trying to express and rationalize their reaction, regardless of how that rationalization really matches up to reality. Happens all the time, why am I even replying?
- jblow 13y ago
  Really I guess the reason I am replying is that I am disturbed by this repeatedly-brought-up notion that highly productive people do not exist. I am not sure why it disturbs me so much, I think maybe because if potential highly-productive people read these things and believe them, they may be demotivated from reaching their potential. Maybe, I don't know. If you don't believe that highly-productive programmers exist, it is only because you haven't yet met one.
  - jere 13y ago
    >they may be demotivated from reaching their potential. Surely you don't think the potential of these highly productive programmers is to spend their days doing general IT, working on call 24/7, and being compensated with below market salary and benefits?
    - jblow 13y ago
      Well, I don't know that I would recommend this particular job. But I do know that the time I learned the most, and became a truly good programmer, was just a couple of years after college, when I worked my ass off doing very hard things that were initially beyond my ability. It was a company I started with a friend from college, and ultimately the company failed, but it was a tremendous learning experience. Programming skill, at least, is like compound interest. The more you program, the better you will be in the future, which means you will learn faster in the future, etc. At a big company or in an undemanding situation, your pace of learning is pretty slow, being limited by the circumstances around you; and like any compound interest, if you get behind, it becomes pretty hard to catch up to where you would have been. Whereas in a small-company situation or any situation where you are limited only by what you are physically and mentally capable of doing, you are learning as fast as possible. It is very good. You could say that the Penny Arcade job is not as good as starting your own startup and working that hard, and maybe that is true; but my company shut down and left me $100k in debt (back in 2000 when $100k was real money!) whereas when you get paid, you are not taking the same risk. Maybe this also means it is psychologically difficult to work as hard. I don't know.
zanny 13y ago
They don't mention time requirements. While I have independently done all those things mentioned, nobody can do them all at average joe 40 hour a week level combined without having absurd burnout quickly or dying from sleep deprivation. And even then, you aren't working at average levels, you would be far below it due to overexertion. You can't have one guy write the website, maintain the servers, support the office IT, act as tech support, and manage all the site databases. Not on something as big as PA, at least. Maybe on a site with 100k views a month, where the server is just an ECS2 instance and your office firewall is a dlink router with iptables.
pseut 13y ago
It's "excellent code," not "self-perceived excellent code" or "good code."
- GFischer 13y ago
  Good point :) . Yeah, I'm definitely not in the "excellent code" category (more like "it works" category for most languages).
mcv 13y ago
It might be hard to find for the money they're offering.

saraid216 13y ago

Most tech companies have an entire engineering department with sub-divisions in order to get each of these roles done. If you can fulfill four jobs by yourself, then you should be getting paid for four jobs. In Seattle terms, that should be north of 200k annual.

andrewingram 13y ago
There's a difference between being able to do 4 jobs well, and being able to do 4 jobs well at the same time. I can design and code, but I rarely attempt to do both on the same day, because context switching is hard work.
yarou 13y ago
And yet, you'll find that the position probably pays less than even 1/4 of the value generated. Labor hasn't evolved much since the days of the robber barons. Employment should be a contract between equals, not an instrument of subservience. Unfortunately, the meme of exploitative employment reigns supreme today, globally.

jmccree 13y ago

It's hard enough to find someone who can write excellent code in one language. If you can also manage servers, do DBA work, and configure firewalls/networking equipment, you are actually very valuable to the right team/client.

asdasf 13y ago

Yes. And of the small number of people who believe they can do that, 99% of them can not.

dllthomas 13y ago
How do I tell? (nod to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)
- nerfhammer 13y ago
  The DKE means people rate themselves closer to average for both those below average and above average. But people below average still think they are below those at the top, just not by the amount they think.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    So if I think I'm above average, I'm good?
    - nerfhammer 13y ago
      No, people tend to think they are above average at any task they spend time on. That's a different cognitive bias.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        But my point, reinforced by the numbers I gave, is that there is overlap in the distributions between "how good I think I am" for those actually at the bottom and those actually at the top. There may well be other cognitive biases at play.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - dllthomas 13y ago

jblow 13y ago

What is described is something toward the top end of basic competence. The only reason someone would think this is crazy is if they have been hanging around bad engineers and / or administrators. That said, most engineers / administrators are pretty mediocre, especially these days now that so many more people are doing it. So. I mean, if "managing office firewalls" is on someone's list of things that are impressive, maybe that person does not have a clear view of the problem space. But I should not even be giving the article so much attention as this. It's clear the author is confused. At first he talks about how rare and crazy it is to find someone who can do this, but then, contradictorily, he laments that PA will get tons of applicants who can do the job. Well, guy, which is it? They can't both be true. All that is going on here is that someone had a negative reaction to the job posting and is trying to express and rationalize their reaction, regardless of how that rationalization really matches up to reality. Happens all the time, why am I even replying?

jblow 13y ago
Really I guess the reason I am replying is that I am disturbed by this repeatedly-brought-up notion that highly productive people do not exist. I am not sure why it disturbs me so much, I think maybe because if potential highly-productive people read these things and believe them, they may be demotivated from reaching their potential. Maybe, I don't know. If you don't believe that highly-productive programmers exist, it is only because you haven't yet met one.
- jere 13y ago
  >they may be demotivated from reaching their potential. Surely you don't think the potential of these highly productive programmers is to spend their days doing general IT, working on call 24/7, and being compensated with below market salary and benefits?
  - jblow 13y ago
    Well, I don't know that I would recommend this particular job. But I do know that the time I learned the most, and became a truly good programmer, was just a couple of years after college, when I worked my ass off doing very hard things that were initially beyond my ability. It was a company I started with a friend from college, and ultimately the company failed, but it was a tremendous learning experience. Programming skill, at least, is like compound interest. The more you program, the better you will be in the future, which means you will learn faster in the future, etc. At a big company or in an undemanding situation, your pace of learning is pretty slow, being limited by the circumstances around you; and like any compound interest, if you get behind, it becomes pretty hard to catch up to where you would have been. Whereas in a small-company situation or any situation where you are limited only by what you are physically and mentally capable of doing, you are learning as fast as possible. It is very good. You could say that the Penny Arcade job is not as good as starting your own startup and working that hard, and maybe that is true; but my company shut down and left me $100k in debt (back in 2000 when $100k was real money!) whereas when you get paid, you are not taking the same risk. Maybe this also means it is psychologically difficult to work as hard. I don't know.

zanny 13y ago

They don't mention time requirements. While I have independently done all those things mentioned, nobody can do them all at average joe 40 hour a week level combined without having absurd burnout quickly or dying from sleep deprivation. And even then, you aren't working at average levels, you would be far below it due to overexertion. You can't have one guy write the website, maintain the servers, support the office IT, act as tech support, and manage all the site databases. Not on something as big as PA, at least. Maybe on a site with 100k views a month, where the server is just an ECS2 instance and your office firewall is a dlink router with iptables.

pseut 13y ago

It's "excellent code," not "self-perceived excellent code" or "good code."

GFischer 13y ago
Good point :) . Yeah, I'm definitely not in the "excellent code" category (more like "it works" category for most languages).

mcv 13y ago

It might be hard to find for the money they're offering.