6 ms·

Andrea Rossi has started commercializing ECAT nuclear fusion devices

29 points by adnam 13y ago

cjg_ 13y ago
Is there conclusive evidence that this device actually work yet?
- voidlogic 13y ago
  Kickstart buying one an trying it out? j/k :)
- pdelbarba 13y ago
  Ummm... No.
busterarm 13y ago
$2/MWhr to run? That seems unbelievably cheap. I hope those figures aren't overly optimistic.
- rs232 13y ago
  From a guy selling cold fusion? Nah, it's legit.
zokier 13y ago
If it actually produces 1MW of power from a shipping container, even if all other claims were false, I'd think this would be useful in emergency/disaster zones.
- kzrdude 13y ago
  You just need a 200 kW power outlet in the disaster zone (According to their technical data sheet).
  - dublinben 13y ago
    A 200kW generator can fit on a small trailer. It's pretty common in the electrical generation field to use smaller generators to kick-start successively larger generators. That's how conventional hydro and nuclear plants must be started. http://www.kohlerpower.com/rental/detail.htm?sectionNumber=28161&categoryNumber=28261&prodnum=61561 http://www.kohlerpower.com/rental/detail.htm?sectionNumber=2...
    - lutusp 13y ago
      You're missing the point that, if the claims were real, 200 KW of the claimed output power of 1 MW cold be used to sustain the reaction, thus removing the input power requirement. This kind of "fact sheet" can only persuade people who don't understand physics.
      - dublinben 13y ago
        I'm pretty sure this is a scam/hoax. I was just trying to explain how the initial claim itself was at least plausible.
        lutusp 13y ago
        > I was just trying to explain how the initial claim itself was at least plausible. If the author had wanted to be plausible, he would not have mentioned the required input power. That's a dead giveaway and show-stopper, because anything remotely real would not have that requirement. If the units can deliver five times their input heat energy, then 1/5 of the output energy can be used to sustain the reaction. That's not difficult to grasp.
- darky3041 13y ago
  Thermal power only, though. Not 1MW of electricity
  - lutusp 13y ago
    Because of the ready availability of efficient thermoelectric converters, this is a distinction without a difference.
    - darky3041 13y ago
      Thermocouples are only 5-7% efficient. Any sort of steam turbine you can't use efficiently due to 120C max output temperature.
    - option_greek 13y ago
      What thermoelectric converters are available currently ? I thought the most efficient is a stirling engine and its efficiency is capped by carnot cycle.
donquichotte 13y ago
Nice. Now the question whether Andrea Rossi is a conman will be settled once and for all. I'm looking forward to the first reviews.
- bglazer 13y ago
  Judging by the extremely unfavorable picture portrayed by his Wikipedia articles [1][2], that question has already been answered. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29
mlamat 13y ago
I have a bridge to sell you.
tosiabunio 13y ago
Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913 http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913
- deletes 13y ago
  Paper describes two experiment conducted on ecat prototypes. It should be read by anyone interested in the subject.
lutusp 13y ago
> The ECAT 1MW plant contains 106 smaller ECAT units mounted in a shipping container. Valve for filling the Hydrogen is on the front of each unit, together with electrical connection to the immersion heater used to start the reaction. Not mentioned in the article is that the "immersion heater" required power -- to sustain the cold fusion reaction, of course -- totals just over 1 MW continuous. > Current delivery time is estimated to four months. That should be enough time to sign up an adequate number of perfect fools.
- zokier 13y ago
  > Not mentioned in the article is that the "immersion heater" required power The tech data page specifies 200kW input power
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > > Not mentioned in the article is that the "immersion heater" required power > The tech data page specifies 200kW input power Yes, but you see, that is a marketing claim, not a physical one. If it were true, Rossi would be sequestered with a team of crack lawyers attempting to secure patent protection for his breakthrough, rather than trying to sign people up to buy his unprotected, yet-to-be-built device. Also, why doesn't Rossi use 200 KW of the claimed 1 MW output power to sustain the reaction, thus removing the input power requirement? This "fact sheet" reads very differently to someone who actually understands physics.
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > Yes, but you see, that is a marketing claim, not a physical one. If it were true, Rossi would be sequestered with a team of crack lawyers attempting to secure patent protection for his breakthrough As for patents on perpetual motion devices, the Patent Office is geared to reject claimed cold fusion patents that don't include a demonstration of a working device (of course, the reason for this is such claims have proven irreproducible, which impinges on the utility test for patentability.)
orenbarzilai 13y ago
He should produce a sexy video & start a kick starter campaign...
matponta 13y ago
Well, it's drawing 200kW form the input, and the other 800kW from harvesting radiowaves and alien probes, I guess.
makerops 13y ago
On the one hand, I just can not believe that someone would be audacious enough to try such a scam, when there is such a relatively huge amount of people with their eyes on this. On the other hand history has shown us that this happens A LOT. Human nature is a funny thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig
- AKifer 13y ago
  You're right, saddly the law of nature made that there will always be people who will buy such an ideas. With one customer, he would pay the cost of web design, content creation, web hosting, domain name and 3D stuffs. With 2 customers, it would be profitable.
AKifer 13y ago
"ECAT 1 MW Plant produces energy through a so-called cold fusion process. No combustion takes place; instead Nickel and Hydrogen merge to produce Copper. Per unit of weight, this process is at least 100,000 more efficient than any known combustion process" Seriously, even a monkey would see it's impossible.
- astrodust 13y ago
  I don't know why they don't hype up how a by-product of this process is super valuable copper. Next up: Machine that turns lead into gold and Bitcoins.
- gus_massa 13y ago
  From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon > A thermonuclear weapon weighing little more than 2,400 pounds (1,100 kg) can produce an explosive force comparable to the detonation of more than 1.2 million tons (1.1 million tonnes) of TNT The energy/mass of this atomic bomb is 4.2 10^12 J/Kg=m^2/s^2 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1200000+tons+of+TNT+%28Energy%29+%2F+1100+kg http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1200000+tons+of+TNT+%28... The energy/mass of gasoline is 4.5 10^7 J/Kg=m^2/s^2 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=specific+combustion+heat+gasoline+to+m%5E2%2Fs%5E2 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=specific+combustion+hea... So the atomic bomb is 100000 more “efficient” than gasoline. In spite of this, I’m sure this device will “mysteriously” not work.
fauxscot 13y ago
Wow. This is a scam on a truly impressive scale. Note that they are looking for a beta site customer... lower right corner... next to the impressive list of folks who have validated cold fusion, which would be zero by my count. At least from places that don't feature folks with funny hats made of foil. 100,000 times more efficient? Wow. Just wow.
lafar6502 13y ago
As stated in technical parameters: the water pump output is 30-1500 liters/hour, it means max 0.4 liter per second. Assuming it raises the temperature of water by 40 degrees K, the energy output per second is 4200J/kgK 0.5kg * 40K = 84000 Joules/sec = 84 kW. Assuming it draws 167kW, it's much worse than any electric water heater.
- lafar6502 13y ago
  And nowhere near the claimed 1MW... Am I wrong or they didn't even bother to do the math properly?
- gus_massa 13y ago
  Nice finding! But let’s be optimistic! If we pick the maximum range in the technical specification [1] and suppose that the temperature difference were 120°C then it would only generate 0.21MW [2]. Just in case, I checked and at 4Bar, the boiling point of water is 144°C [3], so the device is not producing vapor, only hot water. [1] http://ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-1-mw/ecat-1mw-technical-data http://ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-1-mw/ecat-1mw-technical-d... [2] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1500+kg%2Fhr+*+1+cal%2F%28g%C2%B0C%29+*+120%C2%B0C+to+Mwatts&a=UnitClash_*cal.*CaloriesThermochemical.dflt--&a=UnitClash_*g.*Grams.dflt--&a=UnitClash_*Mwatts.*Megawatts.dflt--&a=UnitClash_*%C2%B0C.*DegreesCelsiusDifference-- http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1500+kg%2Fhr+*+1+cal%2F... [3] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926....

29 points by adnam 13y ago

cjg_ 13y ago

Is there conclusive evidence that this device actually work yet?

voidlogic 13y ago
Kickstart buying one an trying it out? j/k :)
pdelbarba 13y ago
Ummm... No.

busterarm 13y ago

$2/MWhr to run? That seems unbelievably cheap. I hope those figures aren't overly optimistic.

rs232 13y ago
From a guy selling cold fusion? Nah, it's legit.

zokier 13y ago

If it actually produces 1MW of power from a shipping container, even if all other claims were false, I'd think this would be useful in emergency/disaster zones.

kzrdude 13y ago
You just need a 200 kW power outlet in the disaster zone (According to their technical data sheet).
- dublinben 13y ago
  A 200kW generator can fit on a small trailer. It's pretty common in the electrical generation field to use smaller generators to kick-start successively larger generators. That's how conventional hydro and nuclear plants must be started. http://www.kohlerpower.com/rental/detail.htm?sectionNumber=28161&categoryNumber=28261&prodnum=61561 http://www.kohlerpower.com/rental/detail.htm?sectionNumber=2...
  - lutusp 13y ago
    You're missing the point that, if the claims were real, 200 KW of the claimed output power of 1 MW cold be used to sustain the reaction, thus removing the input power requirement. This kind of "fact sheet" can only persuade people who don't understand physics.
    - dublinben 13y ago
      I'm pretty sure this is a scam/hoax. I was just trying to explain how the initial claim itself was at least plausible.
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > I was just trying to explain how the initial claim itself was at least plausible. If the author had wanted to be plausible, he would not have mentioned the required input power. That's a dead giveaway and show-stopper, because anything remotely real would not have that requirement. If the units can deliver five times their input heat energy, then 1/5 of the output energy can be used to sustain the reaction. That's not difficult to grasp.
darky3041 13y ago
Thermal power only, though. Not 1MW of electricity
- lutusp 13y ago
  Because of the ready availability of efficient thermoelectric converters, this is a distinction without a difference.
  - darky3041 13y ago
    Thermocouples are only 5-7% efficient. Any sort of steam turbine you can't use efficiently due to 120C max output temperature.
  - option_greek 13y ago
    What thermoelectric converters are available currently ? I thought the most efficient is a stirling engine and its efficiency is capped by carnot cycle.

donquichotte 13y ago

Nice. Now the question whether Andrea Rossi is a conman will be settled once and for all. I'm looking forward to the first reviews.

bglazer 13y ago
Judging by the extremely unfavorable picture portrayed by his Wikipedia articles [1][2], that question has already been answered. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Catalyzer [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29

mlamat 13y ago

I have a bridge to sell you.

tosiabunio 13y ago

Indication of anomalous heat energy production in a reactor device http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913 http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913

deletes 13y ago
Paper describes two experiment conducted on ecat prototypes. It should be read by anyone interested in the subject.

lutusp 13y ago

> The ECAT 1MW plant contains 106 smaller ECAT units mounted in a shipping container. Valve for filling the Hydrogen is on the front of each unit, together with electrical connection to the immersion heater used to start the reaction. Not mentioned in the article is that the "immersion heater" required power -- to sustain the cold fusion reaction, of course -- totals just over 1 MW continuous. > Current delivery time is estimated to four months. That should be enough time to sign up an adequate number of perfect fools.

zokier 13y ago
> Not mentioned in the article is that the "immersion heater" required power The tech data page specifies 200kW input power
- lutusp 13y ago
  > > Not mentioned in the article is that the "immersion heater" required power > The tech data page specifies 200kW input power Yes, but you see, that is a marketing claim, not a physical one. If it were true, Rossi would be sequestered with a team of crack lawyers attempting to secure patent protection for his breakthrough, rather than trying to sign people up to buy his unprotected, yet-to-be-built device. Also, why doesn't Rossi use 200 KW of the claimed 1 MW output power to sustain the reaction, thus removing the input power requirement? This "fact sheet" reads very differently to someone who actually understands physics.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Yes, but you see, that is a marketing claim, not a physical one. If it were true, Rossi would be sequestered with a team of crack lawyers attempting to secure patent protection for his breakthrough As for patents on perpetual motion devices, the Patent Office is geared to reject claimed cold fusion patents that don't include a demonstration of a working device (of course, the reason for this is such claims have proven irreproducible, which impinges on the utility test for patentability.)

orenbarzilai 13y ago

He should produce a sexy video & start a kick starter campaign...

matponta 13y ago

Well, it's drawing 200kW form the input, and the other 800kW from harvesting radiowaves and alien probes, I guess.

makerops 13y ago

On the one hand, I just can not believe that someone would be audacious enough to try such a scam, when there is such a relatively huge amount of people with their eyes on this. On the other hand history has shown us that this happens A LOT. Human nature is a funny thing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Weil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Lustig

AKifer 13y ago
You're right, saddly the law of nature made that there will always be people who will buy such an ideas. With one customer, he would pay the cost of web design, content creation, web hosting, domain name and 3D stuffs. With 2 customers, it would be profitable.

AKifer 13y ago

"ECAT 1 MW Plant produces energy through a so-called cold fusion process. No combustion takes place; instead Nickel and Hydrogen merge to produce Copper. Per unit of weight, this process is at least 100,000 more efficient than any known combustion process" Seriously, even a monkey would see it's impossible.

astrodust 13y ago
I don't know why they don't hype up how a by-product of this process is super valuable copper. Next up: Machine that turns lead into gold and Bitcoins.
gus_massa 13y ago
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon > A thermonuclear weapon weighing little more than 2,400 pounds (1,100 kg) can produce an explosive force comparable to the detonation of more than 1.2 million tons (1.1 million tonnes) of TNT The energy/mass of this atomic bomb is 4.2 10^12 J/Kg=m^2/s^2 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1200000+tons+of+TNT+%28Energy%29+%2F+1100+kg http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1200000+tons+of+TNT+%28... The energy/mass of gasoline is 4.5 10^7 J/Kg=m^2/s^2 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=specific+combustion+heat+gasoline+to+m%5E2%2Fs%5E2 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=specific+combustion+hea... So the atomic bomb is 100000 more “efficient” than gasoline. In spite of this, I’m sure this device will “mysteriously” not work.

fauxscot 13y ago

Wow. This is a scam on a truly impressive scale. Note that they are looking for a beta site customer... lower right corner... next to the impressive list of folks who have validated cold fusion, which would be zero by my count. At least from places that don't feature folks with funny hats made of foil. 100,000 times more efficient? Wow. Just wow.

lafar6502 13y ago

As stated in technical parameters: the water pump output is 30-1500 liters/hour, it means max 0.4 liter per second. Assuming it raises the temperature of water by 40 degrees K, the energy output per second is 4200J/kgK 0.5kg * 40K = 84000 Joules/sec = 84 kW. Assuming it draws 167kW, it's much worse than any electric water heater.

lafar6502 13y ago
And nowhere near the claimed 1MW... Am I wrong or they didn't even bother to do the math properly?
gus_massa 13y ago
Nice finding! But let’s be optimistic! If we pick the maximum range in the technical specification [1] and suppose that the temperature difference were 120°C then it would only generate 0.21MW [2]. Just in case, I checked and at 4Bar, the boiling point of water is 144°C [3], so the device is not producing vapor, only hot water. [1] http://ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-1-mw/ecat-1mw-technical-data http://ecat.com/ecat-products/ecat-1-mw/ecat-1mw-technical-d... [2] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1500+kg%2Fhr+*+1+cal%2F%28g%C2%B0C%29+*+120%C2%B0C+to+Mwatts&a=UnitClash_*cal.*CaloriesThermochemical.dflt--&a=UnitClash_*g.*Grams.dflt--&a=UnitClash_*Mwatts.*Megawatts.dflt--&a=UnitClash_*%C2%B0C.*DegreesCelsiusDifference-- http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1500+kg%2Fhr+*+1+cal%2F... [3] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926....