4 ms·

A modern saint and sinner

11 points by terpua 19y ago

ivankirigin 19y ago
I noted this the other day: http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2007/10/samizdata_quote_241.html http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2007/10/samizdata_quo... "I belong to a Facebook group called "Che Guevara was a murderer and your T-Shirt is not cool". It has 10,935 members."
bilbo0s 19y ago
You know the issue with getting people to subscribe to Americanism around the world is the way we go about it. Chinese culture, for example, is just as hegemonic as our culture is. I was in Dakkar, and I could go to a Chinese restaurant. It is getting that way across sub-saharan Africa as well, the Chinese are everywhere. Even in Zimbabwe people love Jet Li, Jackie Chan and Chow Yun-Fat. The story is the same in South America or Eastern Europe. Yet everyone hates us, and can't wait to learn more about China. Why? I travel a lot and have struggled with that question. I am frustrated because I am challenged to think up a reasonable answer to it. I think part of the reason though is the difference in the messages. The West, and the Arabic world for that matter, send messages like the one in this article, 'Our way is better because look at how the other way sucks'. Where as the Chinese or the Japanese send messages like 'Our way is better because we do x, y, and z'. The focus of their message is ALWAYS on their own positive values. If they had their way, the developing world be oblivious to the very existence of America and the West or Christianity, Islam and the Middle East. Articles like this encourage people to go out and get more information on Che. The flip side of that is that they invariably come across information on Batista. Then, at the next dinner party, they are fairly well informed on why the Cubans would turn to iron-fisted despots like Che and Castro to improve their lots. Then you end up trying to argue that the United States would never again get in the business of forcibly maintaining the power of a system like the one that existed in Cuba prior to Castro. And they, rightfully, point to George and Condi and ask if you really believe that. I am without answers. I am frustrated. And I am saddened. I know that there are people in the United States who have what many would consider to be wise values. Respect for others, quiet confidence, wisdom enough to properly weigh the need for strength, flexibility, and balance in most situations. What escapes me is that, somehow, what bubbles to the top are people who preside over profligate spending, gross neglect and DISRESPECT of others (Katrina), and the careless employ of strength without regard to flexibility or balance. We are trying to win hearts and minds. Our leaders of the past 20 or 30 years have made it necessary for us to write articles like this. They have made it necessary for us to send 160000 guys with guns to 'win' those hearts and minds. I don't know much about how hearts and minds are won, that said, it seems to me that something is woefully out of place.
- alaskamiller 19y ago
  That's ridiculous; China will of course emphasize their positive values for the Western world. That veil is all they have to maintain legitimacy on its people. A country that severely limits on what you can and can not see in media, a country that forcibly removes its own citizens with causes that makes American imminent domain laws like child's play, a country that has consistent human rights violations, a country with a ruling oligarchy that has time and again shown it's willing to barter political power with the incentives of capitalistic greed. Yeah, of course that country is going to put out its best face. It bans people from spitting in the streets and have shuttled the homeless and the beggars from the cities just so that a piddling game can be held so that the world can be dazzled and fooled. I'm also not quite sure why people in foreign countries liking Jet Li somehow makes it that Chinese culture is spreading. That's equivalent to saying people like Schwarzenegger and equates that as American culture.
  - bilbo0s 19y ago
    The spread of pop culture is one of the reasons that many anti-American zealots latch onto as justification. So yes, Schwarzenegger, Michael Jackson, McDonald's and Starbucks, they all have a great deal to do with the perceived American cultural hegemony. As Jet Li, Jackie Chan and, foolish as it may seem, Chinese restaurants, all have a great deal to do with Chinese cultural hegemony. The question that confuses me is this. Why worry ONLY about American cultural hegemony, when CLEARLY the Chinese cultural hegemony is also an issue? Why worry ONLY about American cultural hegemony, when Japanese cultural hegemony is also an issue? I maintain that there is something subtle here that we are somehow missing. There HAS to be. Why do the French blow up McDonald's and not the restaurants in the Chinese section of Paris over by Le Marais? There are as many instructors of Chinese martial arts in Munich as there are hip hop clubs. Why single us out? There are MORE girls playing with Tomagotchis than there are listening to Hannah Montana. Why does she need so much more security? Everything you wrote in your post as touching China is (somewhat) factual. Yet most non-Americans consider the United States and Iran to be the prime threats to global peace. Why? In short, what I am saying is that none of this makes sense to me. That this situation is very disconcerting. If there are non-Americans reading this thread, I would REALLY like your opinion on these matters.

11 points by terpua 19y ago

I noted this the other day: http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2007/10/samizdata_quote_241.html http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2007/10/samizdata_quo... "I belong to a Facebook group called "Che Guevara was a murderer and your T-Shirt is not cool". It has 10,935 members."

bilbo0s 19y ago

You know the issue with getting people to subscribe to Americanism around the world is the way we go about it. Chinese culture, for example, is just as hegemonic as our culture is. I was in Dakkar, and I could go to a Chinese restaurant. It is getting that way across sub-saharan Africa as well, the Chinese are everywhere. Even in Zimbabwe people love Jet Li, Jackie Chan and Chow Yun-Fat. The story is the same in South America or Eastern Europe. Yet everyone hates us, and can't wait to learn more about China. Why? I travel a lot and have struggled with that question. I am frustrated because I am challenged to think up a reasonable answer to it. I think part of the reason though is the difference in the messages. The West, and the Arabic world for that matter, send messages like the one in this article, 'Our way is better because look at how the other way sucks'. Where as the Chinese or the Japanese send messages like 'Our way is better because we do x, y, and z'. The focus of their message is ALWAYS on their own positive values. If they had their way, the developing world be oblivious to the very existence of America and the West or Christianity, Islam and the Middle East. Articles like this encourage people to go out and get more information on Che. The flip side of that is that they invariably come across information on Batista. Then, at the next dinner party, they are fairly well informed on why the Cubans would turn to iron-fisted despots like Che and Castro to improve their lots. Then you end up trying to argue that the United States would never again get in the business of forcibly maintaining the power of a system like the one that existed in Cuba prior to Castro. And they, rightfully, point to George and Condi and ask if you really believe that. I am without answers. I am frustrated. And I am saddened. I know that there are people in the United States who have what many would consider to be wise values. Respect for others, quiet confidence, wisdom enough to properly weigh the need for strength, flexibility, and balance in most situations. What escapes me is that, somehow, what bubbles to the top are people who preside over profligate spending, gross neglect and DISRESPECT of others (Katrina), and the careless employ of strength without regard to flexibility or balance. We are trying to win hearts and minds. Our leaders of the past 20 or 30 years have made it necessary for us to write articles like this. They have made it necessary for us to send 160000 guys with guns to 'win' those hearts and minds. I don't know much about how hearts and minds are won, that said, it seems to me that something is woefully out of place.

alaskamiller 19y ago
That's ridiculous; China will of course emphasize their positive values for the Western world. That veil is all they have to maintain legitimacy on its people. A country that severely limits on what you can and can not see in media, a country that forcibly removes its own citizens with causes that makes American imminent domain laws like child's play, a country that has consistent human rights violations, a country with a ruling oligarchy that has time and again shown it's willing to barter political power with the incentives of capitalistic greed. Yeah, of course that country is going to put out its best face. It bans people from spitting in the streets and have shuttled the homeless and the beggars from the cities just so that a piddling game can be held so that the world can be dazzled and fooled. I'm also not quite sure why people in foreign countries liking Jet Li somehow makes it that Chinese culture is spreading. That's equivalent to saying people like Schwarzenegger and equates that as American culture.
- bilbo0s 19y ago
  The spread of pop culture is one of the reasons that many anti-American zealots latch onto as justification. So yes, Schwarzenegger, Michael Jackson, McDonald's and Starbucks, they all have a great deal to do with the perceived American cultural hegemony. As Jet Li, Jackie Chan and, foolish as it may seem, Chinese restaurants, all have a great deal to do with Chinese cultural hegemony. The question that confuses me is this. Why worry ONLY about American cultural hegemony, when CLEARLY the Chinese cultural hegemony is also an issue? Why worry ONLY about American cultural hegemony, when Japanese cultural hegemony is also an issue? I maintain that there is something subtle here that we are somehow missing. There HAS to be. Why do the French blow up McDonald's and not the restaurants in the Chinese section of Paris over by Le Marais? There are as many instructors of Chinese martial arts in Munich as there are hip hop clubs. Why single us out? There are MORE girls playing with Tomagotchis than there are listening to Hannah Montana. Why does she need so much more security? Everything you wrote in your post as touching China is (somewhat) factual. Yet most non-Americans consider the United States and Iran to be the prime threats to global peace. Why? In short, what I am saying is that none of this makes sense to me. That this situation is very disconcerting. If there are non-Americans reading this thread, I would REALLY like your opinion on these matters.