5 ms·

> Who will pick up the mantle and actively develop the next game-changing FOSS web server? We are writing and waiting. I don't mean to be harsh - but if you we

by yeukhon 13y ago

> Who will pick up the mantle and actively develop the next game-changing FOSS web server? We are writing and waiting. I don't mean to be harsh - but if you were to suggest people to ditch nginx, take the initiative and fork it and start doing the support. It's one of those "rants" we hear and nobody does anything. > Getting these NGINX log events into a remote server is easy with rsyslog. But preventing the log events from writing to disk in the first place? And what is the problem with writing to disk? I guess RAM disk is fine? I am not really sure what's the issue with writing to disk. Most of the time it's the application and securing disk more important. I still don't see any convincing argument why we should ditch Nginx. To me all the points so far is about Nginx going commercial.

kbar13 13y ago
I think OP's issue is that writing to disk will break his old NetApp install. I don't think it's really that bad to write the local logs to ramdisk and then have the centralized logging system pull the logfiles every so often as a stopgap. VMs are meant to be ephemeral anyways.
- jlawer 13y ago
  > VMs are meant to be ephemeral anyways. While ephemeral VMs are a great way to operate if your able, I really don't think you can say that your "meant" to operate that way. Many workloads don't fit that model, and certainly a lot of commercial software is of the type that your not going to want to be re-installing too often and going through re-licensing hell.
ars_technician 13y ago
>I don't mean to be harsh - but if you were to suggest people to ditch nginx, take the initiative and fork it and start doing the support. Perhaps he doesn't have the hours/skills free to do so. People are free to complain about things or do a 'call-to-arms' about things they can't fix themselves. >And what is the problem with writing to disk? Performance >I guess RAM disk is fine? It works, but it's a hack and major technical debt to hold. > I am not really sure what's the issue with writing to disk. Performance. Specifically the thundering herd problem. All of his servers log to virtual disks all stored on the same SAN, which is stressing under the load. >I still don't see any convincing argument why we should ditch Nginx. It's a bit of a slippery slope fallacy, but the point is that a basic feature is being held hostage behind a pay-wall. It would be like MySQL requiring you to pay to any users other than the 'admin' SQL account.
- grey-area 13y ago
  Perhaps he doesn't have the hours/skills free to do so. People are free to complain about things or do a 'call-to-arms' about things they can't fix themselves. I think in the case of open source we have far too many people who feel entitled to the work of others without any recompense already. Working on a large OS project like this is mostly a thankless task - people will complain about the problems while taking for granted all the features that just work, and they're unlikely to be raking in lots of money because of attitudes like this. Given the volume of sales, the 3 floor building and the use of NetApp, I would have thought this company has money to pay nginx for what is a core piece of software, even if they have to negotiate a special license or change their setup. If they don't want to or can't, they can use apache, find workarounds, or even patch nginx themselves. Issuing a call to arms over this is pretty obnoxious behaviour, because it implies the nginx people have done something wrong or antisocial in wanting to be paid for some of their work. How outrageous! the point is that a basic feature is being held hostage behind a pay-wall. It would be like MySQL requiring you to pay to any users other than the 'admin' SQL account. Yes, it would be like that (though this feature is more trivial and could be worked around, and is not an existing feature, so not exactly the same). That's the way companies make money when they segment their market and have an OS offering and a commercial one. Nothing wrong with that. If you don't like the rules set by the creators, don't use it; write your own software or use other software. If they had retrospectively retired features and put them into the paid version, perhaps he'd have a point, but as far as I'm aware they haven't. He's not entitled to have the nginx guys work for free forever on his terms on their software. Ending with the exhortation 'Fork it' sums up his position perfectly - someone else should fork this software, add the features I need, and then continue to work for free for me. He's asking 'Who will pick up the mantle', because clearly it won't be him; he's not a sucker after all.
  - ars_technician 13y ago
    >Yes, it would be like that (though this feature is more trivial and could be worked around, and is not an existing feature, so not exactly the same). That's the way companies make money when they segment their market and have an OS offering and a commercial one. Nothing wrong with that. If you don't like the rules set by the creators, don't use it; write your own software or use other software. If they had retrospectively retired features and put them into the paid version, perhaps he'd have a point, but as far as I'm aware they haven't. But what they have done is made a pretty basic marketing mistake. They decided to charge for something that has been 'solved' by apache and hundreds of other pieces of software many years ago. People don't want to pay for something that's not new in the field. >Issuing a call to arms over this is pretty obnoxious behaviour, because it implies the nginx people have done something wrong or antisocial in wanting to be paid for some of their work. How outrageous! You say that like all approaches to making money are the same and it's disingenuous. How about some document editing software that works for free for 30 days and then encrypts all of your files until you pay up? The developers just want to get paid, right? How outrageous! >If you don't like the rules set by the creators, don't use it; write your own software or use other software. That's what he's advocating... >Ending with the exhortation 'Fork it' sums up his position perfectly - someone else should fork this software, add the features I need, and then continue to work for free for me. He's asking 'Who will pick up the mantle', because clearly it won't be him; he's not a sucker after all. That's exactly what good open source foundations do. I take it you are unfamiliar with the apache web server project? What about OpenStack? Maybe Linux or Firefox? None of these projects turn to their users to squeeze money out of them to activate basic features.

by yeukhon 13y ago

kbar13 13y ago

I think OP's issue is that writing to disk will break his old NetApp install. I don't think it's really that bad to write the local logs to ramdisk and then have the centralized logging system pull the logfiles every so often as a stopgap. VMs are meant to be ephemeral anyways.

jlawer 13y ago
> VMs are meant to be ephemeral anyways. While ephemeral VMs are a great way to operate if your able, I really don't think you can say that your "meant" to operate that way. Many workloads don't fit that model, and certainly a lot of commercial software is of the type that your not going to want to be re-installing too often and going through re-licensing hell.

ars_technician 13y ago

>I don't mean to be harsh - but if you were to suggest people to ditch nginx, take the initiative and fork it and start doing the support. Perhaps he doesn't have the hours/skills free to do so. People are free to complain about things or do a 'call-to-arms' about things they can't fix themselves. >And what is the problem with writing to disk? Performance >I guess RAM disk is fine? It works, but it's a hack and major technical debt to hold. > I am not really sure what's the issue with writing to disk. Performance. Specifically the thundering herd problem. All of his servers log to virtual disks all stored on the same SAN, which is stressing under the load. >I still don't see any convincing argument why we should ditch Nginx. It's a bit of a slippery slope fallacy, but the point is that a basic feature is being held hostage behind a pay-wall. It would be like MySQL requiring you to pay to any users other than the 'admin' SQL account.

grey-area 13y ago
Perhaps he doesn't have the hours/skills free to do so. People are free to complain about things or do a 'call-to-arms' about things they can't fix themselves. I think in the case of open source we have far too many people who feel entitled to the work of others without any recompense already. Working on a large OS project like this is mostly a thankless task - people will complain about the problems while taking for granted all the features that just work, and they're unlikely to be raking in lots of money because of attitudes like this. Given the volume of sales, the 3 floor building and the use of NetApp, I would have thought this company has money to pay nginx for what is a core piece of software, even if they have to negotiate a special license or change their setup. If they don't want to or can't, they can use apache, find workarounds, or even patch nginx themselves. Issuing a call to arms over this is pretty obnoxious behaviour, because it implies the nginx people have done something wrong or antisocial in wanting to be paid for some of their work. How outrageous! the point is that a basic feature is being held hostage behind a pay-wall. It would be like MySQL requiring you to pay to any users other than the 'admin' SQL account. Yes, it would be like that (though this feature is more trivial and could be worked around, and is not an existing feature, so not exactly the same). That's the way companies make money when they segment their market and have an OS offering and a commercial one. Nothing wrong with that. If you don't like the rules set by the creators, don't use it; write your own software or use other software. If they had retrospectively retired features and put them into the paid version, perhaps he'd have a point, but as far as I'm aware they haven't. He's not entitled to have the nginx guys work for free forever on his terms on their software. Ending with the exhortation 'Fork it' sums up his position perfectly - someone else should fork this software, add the features I need, and then continue to work for free for me. He's asking 'Who will pick up the mantle', because clearly it won't be him; he's not a sucker after all.
- ars_technician 13y ago
  >Yes, it would be like that (though this feature is more trivial and could be worked around, and is not an existing feature, so not exactly the same). That's the way companies make money when they segment their market and have an OS offering and a commercial one. Nothing wrong with that. If you don't like the rules set by the creators, don't use it; write your own software or use other software. If they had retrospectively retired features and put them into the paid version, perhaps he'd have a point, but as far as I'm aware they haven't. But what they have done is made a pretty basic marketing mistake. They decided to charge for something that has been 'solved' by apache and hundreds of other pieces of software many years ago. People don't want to pay for something that's not new in the field. >Issuing a call to arms over this is pretty obnoxious behaviour, because it implies the nginx people have done something wrong or antisocial in wanting to be paid for some of their work. How outrageous! You say that like all approaches to making money are the same and it's disingenuous. How about some document editing software that works for free for 30 days and then encrypts all of your files until you pay up? The developers just want to get paid, right? How outrageous! >If you don't like the rules set by the creators, don't use it; write your own software or use other software. That's what he's advocating... >Ending with the exhortation 'Fork it' sums up his position perfectly - someone else should fork this software, add the features I need, and then continue to work for free for me. He's asking 'Who will pick up the mantle', because clearly it won't be him; he's not a sucker after all. That's exactly what good open source foundations do. I take it you are unfamiliar with the apache web server project? What about OpenStack? Maybe Linux or Firefox? None of these projects turn to their users to squeeze money out of them to activate basic features.