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I applaud people working long hard hours to get ahead. I am not against working hard but instead the abuse on the part of employers. They hold the power in this

I applaud people working long hard hours to get ahead. I am not against working hard but instead the abuse on the part of employers. They hold the power in this situation, not the people. There are types of employment that are simply unacceptable. During the industrial revolution, ability to support ones family was used to justify young children working in factories. During the civil war, the south fought for the right to use slave labor in order to maintain their standard of living.

berntb 17y ago
Krugman's take on this: http://www.slate.com/id/1918 http://www.slate.com/id/1918 I'd also like to note that I am fascinated by people with high standards and willing to let others suffer for them. :-)
xenophanes 17y ago
Slave labor lowered the South's standard of living, btw. It's inefficient and costly compared to a free market. The view that slavery is practical, economical, or beneficial in any way is a pro-slavery myth! Sweatshops will go away when the country is richer, with or without laws. The hard fact is that nicer working conditions cost money. That means lower wages. If everyone is well off, like in USA, that cost is clearly worth it. If people are very poor, they may prefer the money (which they need to buy necessities) to the improved working environment.
- TrevorJ 17y ago
  "Sweatshops will go away when the country is richer, with or without laws" Explain to me what motivation a company with cheep access to unskilled labor has for improving conditions of it's employees please. What evidence do you have that low wages mean better working conditions for workers? What economic mechanism do you suppose will guide companies to pay unskilled laborers more as the company becomes more profitable? Or are you banking on the general goodwill and fairness of the employer here?
  - lionhearted 17y ago
    Hey Trevor, I normally wouldn't reply to a post that has a lot of closely held beliefs, but you seem like a really smart and caring person so I'm going to take a shot. I've spent some time in really poor places, I've been self-employed, and I've also had people work for me. Companies pay more and improve working conditions to get better people. If people prefer better working conditions, they'll sometimes choose that over higher pay. You can see an example in the first world - Google's pay on average is lower than Microsoft's, but they have more benefits. People sometimes - frequently, actually - do choose higher wages over nicer conditions. I'll tell you personally, I never bought an air conditioner in Boston because I wanted to keep my electricity down and didn't want to go spend the $50 on a used window box. I also ate cheap food and rarely went out. Everyone told me I was crazy and cheap. But later on I had the cash I'd saved to buy out partners' shares in companies when the opportunity was right for both of us, and it improved my life a lot. I still live dirt cheap now, but for a very different reason - I want to start a family in the next couple years, and kids cost a lot. And I want a large family :) I've digressed a bit - people take higher wages/worse conditions frequently. When I was in Chengdu, China, there were plenty of high quality, nice condition jobs. You could easily get a job doing sales, customer service, even serving tables in high class, modern facilities with air conditioning, amenities, etc. Yet a lot of locals chose to work in worse conditions at much higher money. An artisan in a sweatshot might make 3x-10x the money of a waiter. And 40 cents/hour looks low, until you realize that a good breakfast would run you 22 cents, your bus ride to work cost 11 cents, etc. My gym membership for the full month with infinite personal training was 12 bucks and change, at one of the nicest gyms in Chengdu. Maybe the biggest example of people choosing money over conditions were the ice cream runners. See, there's lots of historical mountains for hiking in China. People (mostly Chinese, not many foreigners) like to eat ice cream on the hard, sweaty, brutal hikes up the mountain. The Chinese government could never take good care of the bridges, so often one or more would be down and you'd have to ford a river as part of your hike, but that was all just part of the adventure. Anyway, some guys would literally practically run up the mountain with ice cream strapped on their back packed in ice, and sell it to people at the top of the mountain - other locals who sold ice cream on the trails, temples and monasteries, and the occasional small overnight inn (not too many, most people stayed in temples or at the bottom of the mountain). Anyway, from what I gather, the ice cream runners make crazy money, because they're running up a mountain fast with a heavy weight on their back that's melting. They could make less money doing crafts, working in one of the temples, or farming on the mountain - all more pleasant labor. But instead they choose brutal work, completely unforced by anyone, to make it further in life. That was always some lesson to me. China's coming up fast - there'll always be jobs that are less pleasant that pay more, like construction, sewage treatment, etc. in the West. That's common. But at some point on the wage scale, people would prefer lower pay/better conditions such that it'd be cheaper to install air conditioning, offer benefits, etc., than it would be to just continue to increase pay to attract people. At which point, the job conditions will improve. Places that are worse will have to pay more or offer better conditions, or people will work elsewhere. So why do I write this comment? Took me a lot of time. I write it because I think people in China aren't stupid, and are making the best decisions for their lives. There's already better jobs at less pay than ice cream runner, factory worker, construction worker. People choose the harder jobs for the harder pay, and they're not dumb people. As the country gets wealthier, things will get better. I guess the main reason I write in is because you seem like a bright and thoughtful cat, and I hope some of my take is useful to you. Cheers.

berntb 17y ago

Krugman's take on this: http://www.slate.com/id/1918 http://www.slate.com/id/1918 I'd also like to note that I am fascinated by people with high standards and willing to let others suffer for them. :-)

xenophanes 17y ago

Slave labor lowered the South's standard of living, btw. It's inefficient and costly compared to a free market. The view that slavery is practical, economical, or beneficial in any way is a pro-slavery myth! Sweatshops will go away when the country is richer, with or without laws. The hard fact is that nicer working conditions cost money. That means lower wages. If everyone is well off, like in USA, that cost is clearly worth it. If people are very poor, they may prefer the money (which they need to buy necessities) to the improved working environment.

TrevorJ 17y ago
"Sweatshops will go away when the country is richer, with or without laws" Explain to me what motivation a company with cheep access to unskilled labor has for improving conditions of it's employees please. What evidence do you have that low wages mean better working conditions for workers? What economic mechanism do you suppose will guide companies to pay unskilled laborers more as the company becomes more profitable? Or are you banking on the general goodwill and fairness of the employer here?
- lionhearted 17y ago
  Hey Trevor, I normally wouldn't reply to a post that has a lot of closely held beliefs, but you seem like a really smart and caring person so I'm going to take a shot. I've spent some time in really poor places, I've been self-employed, and I've also had people work for me. Companies pay more and improve working conditions to get better people. If people prefer better working conditions, they'll sometimes choose that over higher pay. You can see an example in the first world - Google's pay on average is lower than Microsoft's, but they have more benefits. People sometimes - frequently, actually - do choose higher wages over nicer conditions. I'll tell you personally, I never bought an air conditioner in Boston because I wanted to keep my electricity down and didn't want to go spend the $50 on a used window box. I also ate cheap food and rarely went out. Everyone told me I was crazy and cheap. But later on I had the cash I'd saved to buy out partners' shares in companies when the opportunity was right for both of us, and it improved my life a lot. I still live dirt cheap now, but for a very different reason - I want to start a family in the next couple years, and kids cost a lot. And I want a large family :) I've digressed a bit - people take higher wages/worse conditions frequently. When I was in Chengdu, China, there were plenty of high quality, nice condition jobs. You could easily get a job doing sales, customer service, even serving tables in high class, modern facilities with air conditioning, amenities, etc. Yet a lot of locals chose to work in worse conditions at much higher money. An artisan in a sweatshot might make 3x-10x the money of a waiter. And 40 cents/hour looks low, until you realize that a good breakfast would run you 22 cents, your bus ride to work cost 11 cents, etc. My gym membership for the full month with infinite personal training was 12 bucks and change, at one of the nicest gyms in Chengdu. Maybe the biggest example of people choosing money over conditions were the ice cream runners. See, there's lots of historical mountains for hiking in China. People (mostly Chinese, not many foreigners) like to eat ice cream on the hard, sweaty, brutal hikes up the mountain. The Chinese government could never take good care of the bridges, so often one or more would be down and you'd have to ford a river as part of your hike, but that was all just part of the adventure. Anyway, some guys would literally practically run up the mountain with ice cream strapped on their back packed in ice, and sell it to people at the top of the mountain - other locals who sold ice cream on the trails, temples and monasteries, and the occasional small overnight inn (not too many, most people stayed in temples or at the bottom of the mountain). Anyway, from what I gather, the ice cream runners make crazy money, because they're running up a mountain fast with a heavy weight on their back that's melting. They could make less money doing crafts, working in one of the temples, or farming on the mountain - all more pleasant labor. But instead they choose brutal work, completely unforced by anyone, to make it further in life. That was always some lesson to me. China's coming up fast - there'll always be jobs that are less pleasant that pay more, like construction, sewage treatment, etc. in the West. That's common. But at some point on the wage scale, people would prefer lower pay/better conditions such that it'd be cheaper to install air conditioning, offer benefits, etc., than it would be to just continue to increase pay to attract people. At which point, the job conditions will improve. Places that are worse will have to pay more or offer better conditions, or people will work elsewhere. So why do I write this comment? Took me a lot of time. I write it because I think people in China aren't stupid, and are making the best decisions for their lives. There's already better jobs at less pay than ice cream runner, factory worker, construction worker. People choose the harder jobs for the harder pay, and they're not dumb people. As the country gets wealthier, things will get better. I guess the main reason I write in is because you seem like a bright and thoughtful cat, and I hope some of my take is useful to you. Cheers.