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I use plenty of tools/libraries, some I've written (and OSS'd on github), some totally popular and widely used/tested. What I don't use, nor do I try to force

by _getify 13y ago

I use plenty of tools/libraries, some I've written (and OSS'd on github), some totally popular and widely used/tested. What I don't use, nor do I try to force on others, is the best ways to glue these pieces together. I have my ideas of "best practices", but those ideas are highly adjustable per site/app, and also just my own opinions. No piece I bring into a project makes an intrusive assumption about how the rest of my code will work. I love the assumptions that because I write any amount of glue code, the code I write must certainly be less tested and therefore less quality than that which shows up in a popular framework.

ricardobeat 13y ago
I'm sorry, I accidentally deleted instead of editing, reposted above. That is a very reasonable assumption: code that is used by a dozen projects, with a few variations for each of them, is certainly less tested than code shared by a thousand different projects and developers using a standard API. It's not inherently flawed or bad, but a matter of numbers. Also have in mind that frameworks vary wildy. Angular and Ember might be absurdly prescriptive, you have to do things a certain way, while Backbone and others are extremely flexible, merely a collection of useful patterns and tools. --- Why do frameworks exist? They allow you to speed-up development, offer battle-hardened code, a consistent API, good documentation and proven design patterns, plus developers can make use of their previous experience with it. It's a matter of choice, and of course there are trade-offs, namely flexibility. It's not about being "the standard", just providing useful tools. I bet you end up using a lot of the same components over and over, right? Package them up and call it the 'Getify Framework' and you're in the same spot. I don't get why you feel that someone is 'forcing' you to do anything? You say that you write your own code because I already understood that (architecture) domain pretty well. I’ve done similar “single-page apps” dozens of times. I’m getting a little better each time I do it. I learn new lessons about easier ways to mix the pieces together with each project. Well, guess what? That's how Backbone, Angular, and all other frameworks came to be. From other developers that decided to share their solutions, and people adopted them because they liked it and it solved some of their problems, not because they were forced to (?).
- Prefinem 13y ago
  I think the definition of Framework needs to be defined. Everyone seems to think that packaging up a bunch of tools is a framework. I would contest that that is wrong. A framework has certain policies and flows that must be followed to allow the program to work. If you bundle up a set of tools, then you have a toolbox. A framework might have a set of tools, but it also has a methodology behind it. If you don't subscribe to that methodology, then that framework isn't for you. I am saying this, coming from the background of not using frameworks because of the bloat and because most of my applications weren't that large. I have used backbone and several other backend frameworks (python and PHP type) and found that they are restricting. For me, programming, coding, hacking, whatever you want to call it is about the freedom to be able to do whatever you want, how ever you want. Yes, I know there are best practices, and there are certain things you aren't supposed to do, but a framework forces you think in a certain pattern, to follow certain rules. Yes, you may be able to develop faster (if your application fits in the scope of the framework) but you have lost much of the freedom that code gives you. I understand people using frameworks. I sit right next to someone who enjoys them very much. But for others (including myself), they are not the next greatest thing to sliced bread because maybe I don't want my bread sliced, but instead, I want it some other way.

by _getify 13y ago

ricardobeat 13y ago

I'm sorry, I accidentally deleted instead of editing, reposted above. That is a very reasonable assumption: code that is used by a dozen projects, with a few variations for each of them, is certainly less tested than code shared by a thousand different projects and developers using a standard API. It's not inherently flawed or bad, but a matter of numbers. Also have in mind that frameworks vary wildy. Angular and Ember might be absurdly prescriptive, you have to do things a certain way, while Backbone and others are extremely flexible, merely a collection of useful patterns and tools. --- Why do frameworks exist? They allow you to speed-up development, offer battle-hardened code, a consistent API, good documentation and proven design patterns, plus developers can make use of their previous experience with it. It's a matter of choice, and of course there are trade-offs, namely flexibility. It's not about being "the standard", just providing useful tools. I bet you end up using a lot of the same components over and over, right? Package them up and call it the 'Getify Framework' and you're in the same spot. I don't get why you feel that someone is 'forcing' you to do anything? You say that you write your own code because I already understood that (architecture) domain pretty well. I’ve done similar “single-page apps” dozens of times. I’m getting a little better each time I do it. I learn new lessons about easier ways to mix the pieces together with each project. Well, guess what? That's how Backbone, Angular, and all other frameworks came to be. From other developers that decided to share their solutions, and people adopted them because they liked it and it solved some of their problems, not because they were forced to (?).

Prefinem 13y ago
I think the definition of Framework needs to be defined. Everyone seems to think that packaging up a bunch of tools is a framework. I would contest that that is wrong. A framework has certain policies and flows that must be followed to allow the program to work. If you bundle up a set of tools, then you have a toolbox. A framework might have a set of tools, but it also has a methodology behind it. If you don't subscribe to that methodology, then that framework isn't for you. I am saying this, coming from the background of not using frameworks because of the bloat and because most of my applications weren't that large. I have used backbone and several other backend frameworks (python and PHP type) and found that they are restricting. For me, programming, coding, hacking, whatever you want to call it is about the freedom to be able to do whatever you want, how ever you want. Yes, I know there are best practices, and there are certain things you aren't supposed to do, but a framework forces you think in a certain pattern, to follow certain rules. Yes, you may be able to develop faster (if your application fits in the scope of the framework) but you have lost much of the freedom that code gives you. I understand people using frameworks. I sit right next to someone who enjoys them very much. But for others (including myself), they are not the next greatest thing to sliced bread because maybe I don't want my bread sliced, but instead, I want it some other way.