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"Desk jockey does manual labor and his feet hurt, story at 11" I worked the graveyard shift as a picker at Amazon back around '00. Back then Amazon was so nerv

"Desk jockey does manual labor and his feet hurt, story at 11" I worked the graveyard shift as a picker at Amazon back around '00. Back then Amazon was so nervous about anybody introducing a bug in the site that all software engineers were put to work either at warehouses or as customer service agents during the holidays. I worked customer service one year and picked for two years, both times during graveyard shifts. This involved flying out to the middle of nowhere from the Seattle headquarters and living out of a hotel. Honestly, it was a lot of fun. Seeing those parts of the operation was fascinating, and Amazon encouraged you to look for inefficiencies and offer solutions or think about how you could fix things once you got back behind a keyboard. Our shifts were exactly the same as the full time workers, but they were faster than us, especially at first. Your feet do indeed hurt and you do indeed walk a ton, but that is more because you've been sitting on your ass for 12 hours a day instead of actually using your body. Yes, you are a mechanical turk in the strictest sense of the word, being dispatched by your hand scanner to go find something and put it in a cart, but it isn't hard work, just a bit boring. If you take it seriously and get good at troubleshooting shortages, then you start getting to do things that require a bit more problem solving, but even the really menial stations aren't terribly bad. In short, this is just a bunch of whining that manual labor is hard work and not terribly engaging. The conditions themselves are plenty good, hard to imagine them being better while doing the same job. They are nothing, nothing at all like the conditions any number of people work every day to manufacture your shoes, t-shirts and electronic equipment. You get to move around, you aren't on an assembly line, the work is varied in its environment. So shut your trap and get back to picking, there's product to get out to customers.

kolektiv 13y ago
There are some rather key differences though don't you think? I imagine as a reasonably valued software engineer you weren't likely to face disciplinary action or loss of employment for not picking fast enough, thus negating a huge cause of stress/anxiety. You also had the knowledge of a definite finite term of employment followed by more relaxing/agreeable work, another rather significant difference. You also talk about troubleshooting shortages and getting to do things that require problem solving. It sounds from this article (and others like it over the last few years) that this kind of thing, if even still available at all, is not likely to happen to your average seasonal employee. The fact that other people have it worse in various sweatshops around the world is hardly relevant, or particularly edifying. We are quite capable of seeing problems as a matter of degree I would hope. Your comment comes across as a little like the CEO who spends a day on the factory floor and proclaims that he had a marvelous time and everyone treated him wonderfully. Unsurprising, but hardly enlightening...
- nicpottier 13y ago
  We were definitely measured the same as everyone else and had the same targets, though obviously didn't face the same repercussions. The targets were hard at first but once you got the hang of it nothing terribly difficult. It is manual labor, I don't really understand the arguments against. Yes, it is work, yes it is boring, but so it being a gas station attendant. The people I worked side by side with seemed happy enough. Maybe I lack empathy, but geez, I actually did it for a while, and you and the other respondent didn't... so maybe another option is that the article is a bit sensational and it isn't as bad as it is made out? Sore feet and that it is boring and are his primary complaints.. really? This is something to get up in arms about?
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  Have you ever worked manual labour? Like a real labour job? When the recession hit, I was unemployed, but got a decent paying construction job from a friend. It involved lifting a hundred pounds at a time, working in dangerous areas (near elevator shafts, on the edge of a 45-story office tower, under cranes) in cold weather (up to minus 40 degrees celcius), and with plenty of dangerous equipment (cranes, concrete pumps, excavators, etc...). The typical work week was 70 hours of gruelling physical work, with even more hours available if you wanted them (and some people would take as many as 100 hours per week). And that job was quite mild, compared to all the oilfield jobs people take up north, where the weather is consistently much colder, and the hours even longer. If working at Amazon was so terrible, there wouldn't be 5000 people employed there. Or the demand for jobs there would be so low, the wages would be much higher. But let's face it, there's much worse jobs even in our western countries.
- DanBC 13y ago
  I've had menial jobs. For what they were - menial work to earn a bit of money - they were great. The bullshit on assembly lines is present, but it's different to the bullshit you get in offices. Good employers can make this kind of menial job a great place to work for many people. Bad employers can very quickly ruin it. > You also talk about troubleshooting shortages and getting to do things that require problem solving. It sounds from this article (and others like it over the last few years) that this kind of thing, if even still available at all, is not likely to happen to your average seasonal employee. Yes, bad companies don't listen to their employees. When someone sits at a machine for 8 hours a day, moving a widget, pushing a button, and putting the widget in a box for someone else, that person knows a lot about that process. They can tell you about the lighting or the draft or the position of the bin or the seat or how stuff piles up too fast for them or how they're left waiting for product. Find these people. Reward them for their insight. Apply those tweaks.
panacea 13y ago
Empathy redundancy detected! "Yes, you are a mechanical turk in the strictest sense of the word, being dispatched by your hand scanner to go find something and put it in a cart, but it isn't hard work, just a bit boring." Would you like to be a permanent 'mechanical turk'? As in... you had zero choice in the matter and no chance to change things ever? That's not 'a bit boring'... that's soul crushing (and I mean 'soul' in a non-religious sense). Studies have shown that sort of stress causes heart disease over 'good stress' (you're manning the Very Important controls). "If you take it seriously and get good at troubleshooting shortages, then you start getting to do things that require a bit more problem solving, but even the really menial stations aren't terribly bad." But what if you're not very good at problem solving (quite possible if you're working in a warehouse)?... you being a human with very real needs doesn't stop because you can't 'get serious and solve problems'. Quite honestly... from your comment, I can only deduce that you are an asshole with an inability to imagine yourself in other people's shoes.
- nicpottier 13y ago
  The employees aren't in jail, they aren't slaves, they have choice. I worked there, it wasn't that bad. The article is sensational.
  - panacea 13y ago
    "The employees aren't in jail, they aren't slaves, they have choice." Care to outline the choice they have (you forgot the "s", as belies your worldview)? What are the choices outside of jail, slavery or the work conditions described in the article? I suspect that many of them can't get another job and they need to feed themselves or dependents like children. "The article is sensational." If you disagree with the article, why would you give it such a rousing review? Yep... you are a Grade-A fuckwit.
    - nicpottier 13y ago
      Fuckwit? Asshole? Seriously? You can disagree, that's cool, we can have different opinions, but aren't we supposed to strive to a slightly higher level of discourse on HN? You don't know me, so lay off the ad-hominem, this isn't the forum for it. We apparently disagree on what kinds of choices people have in the Midwest. We are coming from different places in our experience, and I happen to think I hold the edge on this particular topic. Let's keep it civil though ya?
Unosolo 13y ago
At a job like this one's mind is free to ponder on whatever matters it considers important. Certainly so after the period of initial accustomisation which can be physically hard until one learns the ropes and how to pace oneself through the day. I had a chance to work in a warehouse of a jewelry store, operate a spot welder at an automotive manufacturer and act as do-it-all in a kitchen of a 600 sit venue catering for large functions working up to 18 hour shifts (normally 12-14 hours, 7 day weeks). Programming and analysis jobs come with their own hidden health hazards physical and anxieties alike, but worse developers are essentially paid to sit and think whole day very intensely and deeply on topics set by others. This can be disturbing and have a profound impact not only on the physical and mental state, but family life. That's why I can understand when a 52 year old web celebrity and university professor decides to apply for a job of as a USPS letter carrier. [1] That's why Paul Grahams advice [2] resonates especially well with me: "A palliative care nurse called Bronnie Ware made a list of the biggest regrets of the dying. Her list seems plausible. I could see myself—can see myself—making at least 4 of these 5 mistakes. If you had to compress them into a single piece of advice, it might be: don't be a cog. The 5 regrets paint a portrait of post-industrial man, who shrinks himself into a shape that fits his circumstances, then turns dutifully till he stops." 1. http://goo.gl/uVwXL8 http://goo.gl/uVwXL8 - Google Translate, original: http://postbote.lj.ru http://postbote.lj.ru 2. http://www.paulgraham.com/todo.html http://www.paulgraham.com/todo.html

kolektiv 13y ago

There are some rather key differences though don't you think? I imagine as a reasonably valued software engineer you weren't likely to face disciplinary action or loss of employment for not picking fast enough, thus negating a huge cause of stress/anxiety. You also had the knowledge of a definite finite term of employment followed by more relaxing/agreeable work, another rather significant difference. You also talk about troubleshooting shortages and getting to do things that require problem solving. It sounds from this article (and others like it over the last few years) that this kind of thing, if even still available at all, is not likely to happen to your average seasonal employee. The fact that other people have it worse in various sweatshops around the world is hardly relevant, or particularly edifying. We are quite capable of seeing problems as a matter of degree I would hope. Your comment comes across as a little like the CEO who spends a day on the factory floor and proclaims that he had a marvelous time and everyone treated him wonderfully. Unsurprising, but hardly enlightening...

nicpottier 13y ago
We were definitely measured the same as everyone else and had the same targets, though obviously didn't face the same repercussions. The targets were hard at first but once you got the hang of it nothing terribly difficult. It is manual labor, I don't really understand the arguments against. Yes, it is work, yes it is boring, but so it being a gas station attendant. The people I worked side by side with seemed happy enough. Maybe I lack empathy, but geez, I actually did it for a while, and you and the other respondent didn't... so maybe another option is that the article is a bit sensational and it isn't as bad as it is made out? Sore feet and that it is boring and are his primary complaints.. really? This is something to get up in arms about?
Mikeb85 13y ago
Have you ever worked manual labour? Like a real labour job? When the recession hit, I was unemployed, but got a decent paying construction job from a friend. It involved lifting a hundred pounds at a time, working in dangerous areas (near elevator shafts, on the edge of a 45-story office tower, under cranes) in cold weather (up to minus 40 degrees celcius), and with plenty of dangerous equipment (cranes, concrete pumps, excavators, etc...). The typical work week was 70 hours of gruelling physical work, with even more hours available if you wanted them (and some people would take as many as 100 hours per week). And that job was quite mild, compared to all the oilfield jobs people take up north, where the weather is consistently much colder, and the hours even longer. If working at Amazon was so terrible, there wouldn't be 5000 people employed there. Or the demand for jobs there would be so low, the wages would be much higher. But let's face it, there's much worse jobs even in our western countries.
DanBC 13y ago
I've had menial jobs. For what they were - menial work to earn a bit of money - they were great. The bullshit on assembly lines is present, but it's different to the bullshit you get in offices. Good employers can make this kind of menial job a great place to work for many people. Bad employers can very quickly ruin it. > You also talk about troubleshooting shortages and getting to do things that require problem solving. It sounds from this article (and others like it over the last few years) that this kind of thing, if even still available at all, is not likely to happen to your average seasonal employee. Yes, bad companies don't listen to their employees. When someone sits at a machine for 8 hours a day, moving a widget, pushing a button, and putting the widget in a box for someone else, that person knows a lot about that process. They can tell you about the lighting or the draft or the position of the bin or the seat or how stuff piles up too fast for them or how they're left waiting for product. Find these people. Reward them for their insight. Apply those tweaks.

panacea 13y ago

Empathy redundancy detected! "Yes, you are a mechanical turk in the strictest sense of the word, being dispatched by your hand scanner to go find something and put it in a cart, but it isn't hard work, just a bit boring." Would you like to be a permanent 'mechanical turk'? As in... you had zero choice in the matter and no chance to change things ever? That's not 'a bit boring'... that's soul crushing (and I mean 'soul' in a non-religious sense). Studies have shown that sort of stress causes heart disease over 'good stress' (you're manning the Very Important controls). "If you take it seriously and get good at troubleshooting shortages, then you start getting to do things that require a bit more problem solving, but even the really menial stations aren't terribly bad." But what if you're not very good at problem solving (quite possible if you're working in a warehouse)?... you being a human with very real needs doesn't stop because you can't 'get serious and solve problems'. Quite honestly... from your comment, I can only deduce that you are an asshole with an inability to imagine yourself in other people's shoes.

nicpottier 13y ago
The employees aren't in jail, they aren't slaves, they have choice. I worked there, it wasn't that bad. The article is sensational.
- panacea 13y ago
  "The employees aren't in jail, they aren't slaves, they have choice." Care to outline the choice they have (you forgot the "s", as belies your worldview)? What are the choices outside of jail, slavery or the work conditions described in the article? I suspect that many of them can't get another job and they need to feed themselves or dependents like children. "The article is sensational." If you disagree with the article, why would you give it such a rousing review? Yep... you are a Grade-A fuckwit.
  - nicpottier 13y ago
    Fuckwit? Asshole? Seriously? You can disagree, that's cool, we can have different opinions, but aren't we supposed to strive to a slightly higher level of discourse on HN? You don't know me, so lay off the ad-hominem, this isn't the forum for it. We apparently disagree on what kinds of choices people have in the Midwest. We are coming from different places in our experience, and I happen to think I hold the edge on this particular topic. Let's keep it civil though ya?

Unosolo 13y ago

At a job like this one's mind is free to ponder on whatever matters it considers important. Certainly so after the period of initial accustomisation which can be physically hard until one learns the ropes and how to pace oneself through the day. I had a chance to work in a warehouse of a jewelry store, operate a spot welder at an automotive manufacturer and act as do-it-all in a kitchen of a 600 sit venue catering for large functions working up to 18 hour shifts (normally 12-14 hours, 7 day weeks). Programming and analysis jobs come with their own hidden health hazards physical and anxieties alike, but worse developers are essentially paid to sit and think whole day very intensely and deeply on topics set by others. This can be disturbing and have a profound impact not only on the physical and mental state, but family life. That's why I can understand when a 52 year old web celebrity and university professor decides to apply for a job of as a USPS letter carrier. [1] That's why Paul Grahams advice [2] resonates especially well with me: "A palliative care nurse called Bronnie Ware made a list of the biggest regrets of the dying. Her list seems plausible. I could see myself—can see myself—making at least 4 of these 5 mistakes. If you had to compress them into a single piece of advice, it might be: don't be a cog. The 5 regrets paint a portrait of post-industrial man, who shrinks himself into a shape that fits his circumstances, then turns dutifully till he stops." 1. http://goo.gl/uVwXL8 http://goo.gl/uVwXL8 - Google Translate, original: http://postbote.lj.ru http://postbote.lj.ru 2. http://www.paulgraham.com/todo.html http://www.paulgraham.com/todo.html