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And what moved the culture? Legislation. The very same legislation that the Internet libertarian crew who tell us to "change the culture rather than using the m

And what moved the culture? Legislation. The very same legislation that the Internet libertarian crew who tell us to "change the culture rather than using the men with guns" generally oppose. So, yeah, that kind of proves the point.

wisty 13y ago
And what moved the legislation? Culture.
- tommorris 13y ago
  No, plenty of times the legislation is pushed through in spite of culture. Look at the banning of smoking in pubs and restaurants. When that was passed in Britain, it was considered hugely out of step with people's attitudes. Now it seems perfectly normal, but that kind of change came long before the cultural change. I'd say the same about the first legal change to allow gay sexual relationships. If you'd conducted a poll back in 1967 and asked people whether they think homosexuality should be legal, they would have told you absolutely not. The fact that the law changed and it didn't start raining frogs from the sky convinced people afterwards that it was okay. Much as it pains me to praise politicians, they are sometimes ahead of the public on issues and take seriously some kind of moral commitment to make society fairer even when it is unpopular.
  - rjknight 13y ago
    it was considered hugely out of step with people's attitudes .. as expressed via the newspapers and (some) television. It's certainly true that for a politician to do the right thing, it's necessary for them to go against "public opinion", but I'm not sure that "public opinion" and the actual opinions of members of the public are the same thing. In fact, the ban was introduced in 2007, by which point only 25% of people smoked, down from over 40% of men and 35% of women in 1980 and over 60% of men and 40% of women in 1960. It's just as easy to argue that the ban was only introduced once smokers were in a clear and shrinking minority, hardly an example of great political bravery. EDIT: a poll from 2005 shows 73% of people in support of a ban when given a yes/no choice, although this declines if compromise options such as legally enforced no-smoking areas are offered: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/43 http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/43 If you believed the newspapers, you'd think that most British people want to withdraw from the EU (despite voting in favour of the common market in the only referendum we ever had on it), bring back capital punishment (despite it being long gone and there having been no popular campaign for its return) and deport a couple of million people for being insufficiently British (despite the fact that nobody has ever voted for this in large enough numbers to even start thinking about it; the Tories are only against increases in immigration and even this moderation of their past stance was only enough to get them into government via a coalition). Without wishing to romanticise the good sense of the electorate, generally most people are more reasonable than the media makes them look. I think that's compatible with the notion that politicians follow the prevailing culture (possibly because, via doorstep campaigning and MP's surgeries they actually speak to real people every now and then) and it's the media that makes things look otherwise. It's true that going against the media does require some bravery on the part of our politicians, but I think past experience shows that when the politicians are in touch with what people actually want, it's the media that has to change course and adapt its view of "public opinion" to reality.

wisty 13y ago

And what moved the legislation? Culture.

tommorris 13y ago
No, plenty of times the legislation is pushed through in spite of culture. Look at the banning of smoking in pubs and restaurants. When that was passed in Britain, it was considered hugely out of step with people's attitudes. Now it seems perfectly normal, but that kind of change came long before the cultural change. I'd say the same about the first legal change to allow gay sexual relationships. If you'd conducted a poll back in 1967 and asked people whether they think homosexuality should be legal, they would have told you absolutely not. The fact that the law changed and it didn't start raining frogs from the sky convinced people afterwards that it was okay. Much as it pains me to praise politicians, they are sometimes ahead of the public on issues and take seriously some kind of moral commitment to make society fairer even when it is unpopular.
- rjknight 13y ago
  it was considered hugely out of step with people's attitudes .. as expressed via the newspapers and (some) television. It's certainly true that for a politician to do the right thing, it's necessary for them to go against "public opinion", but I'm not sure that "public opinion" and the actual opinions of members of the public are the same thing. In fact, the ban was introduced in 2007, by which point only 25% of people smoked, down from over 40% of men and 35% of women in 1980 and over 60% of men and 40% of women in 1960. It's just as easy to argue that the ban was only introduced once smokers were in a clear and shrinking minority, hardly an example of great political bravery. EDIT: a poll from 2005 shows 73% of people in support of a ban when given a yes/no choice, although this declines if compromise options such as legally enforced no-smoking areas are offered: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/43 http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/43 If you believed the newspapers, you'd think that most British people want to withdraw from the EU (despite voting in favour of the common market in the only referendum we ever had on it), bring back capital punishment (despite it being long gone and there having been no popular campaign for its return) and deport a couple of million people for being insufficiently British (despite the fact that nobody has ever voted for this in large enough numbers to even start thinking about it; the Tories are only against increases in immigration and even this moderation of their past stance was only enough to get them into government via a coalition). Without wishing to romanticise the good sense of the electorate, generally most people are more reasonable than the media makes them look. I think that's compatible with the notion that politicians follow the prevailing culture (possibly because, via doorstep campaigning and MP's surgeries they actually speak to real people every now and then) and it's the media that makes things look otherwise. It's true that going against the media does require some bravery on the part of our politicians, but I think past experience shows that when the politicians are in touch with what people actually want, it's the media that has to change course and adapt its view of "public opinion" to reality.