4 ms·

A computer science professor's never-ending H-1B fight

16 points by newacc 17y ago

yardie 17y ago
He presents a lot of good ideas, but I'm weary of singling out H1B visa holders. It seems the US immigration policy is counterintuitive to just about every other countries' visa policy. It is hopelessly complex and random. It rewards family connection over any valuable skill. I could sponsor a distant cousin and he would get in before a highly talented programmer who doesn't have any famillial connections in the US. And as a programmer I feel like my best years are starting to be behind me. I've still got a fresh mind, but when I leave the office my wrists are killing me. I've just entered my 30s and I'm already telling my wife I don't know how long I'll be able to do the job I love. I won't discourage my son form seeking the same profession but I don't know if I'll have the same passion to encourage him in this profession. I sometimes wonder if programming will evolve to fit the human body or if the body can cope with the intricate work of banging at a keyboard constantly.
- barrkel 17y ago
  Banging at a keyboard constantly - you're doing it wrong. More thinking, less typing. That, or give up the Java.
- newacc 17y ago
  Just like financial, health and immigration reforms, Obama should also bring educational reforms ASAP - if americans don't want their jobs to be outsourced then they have to produce more engineers, nurses, doctors etc., period. The shortage of skilled labor is the major complain and its been actively voiced by all (including Bill Gates) ... the whole H1B issue has 2 major components: 1. shortage of skilled labor and 2. cheap labor available else where. There is also 3rd important issue which is exploitation of H1B visa holders by the employers (the body-shoppers) --- but above all if you have enough supply then employers won't line-up to hire outsiders the way they started doing since y2k, also because of high increase in salaries and other logistics in 3rd world countries (read India) the difference between insource and outsource is not that big anymore ... while the 3rd issue is more important for all who came here with a dream of easy riding and then getting disappointed also needs reforms in regulation and awareness.
- anamax 17y ago
  > He presents a lot of good ideas, but I'm weary of singling out H1B visa holders. It seems the US immigration policy is counterintuitive to just about every other countries' visa policy. It is hopelessly complex and random. It rewards family connection over any valuable skill. That paragraph is much too weak. H1Bs are a small fraction of US legal immigration. Illegal immigration swamps legal immigration. We could increase H1B by 10x and easily have less total immigration. The advocates for increased H1B are being played. We've had the bait and switch game on immigration before. We gave amnesty supposedly in return for effective enforcement. We didn't get enforcement. As to the whole "jobs Americans won't do", I've done farm labor. Also, when one of the meat packing plants lost many of its "undocumented" workers, folks who actually had a legal right to work in this country applied.
  - queensnake 17y ago
    Just to boost your "Americans doing jobs Americans won't do" anecdote with a bigger one (at least in these hard times): http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=118219&provider=top&catid=188 http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=118219&pr...
queensnake 17y ago
This article is from last year. The Durbin/Grassley bill he talks about came and went, but it's back this year. Here's a pretty decent discussion: http://seeker.dice.com/olc/message.jspa?messageID=128406 http://seeker.dice.com/olc/message.jspa?messageID=128406
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
geebee 17y ago
I recently read an article about visas for foreign nurses on businessweek. President Obama is quoted: " "The notion that we would have to import nurses makes absolutely no sense," Obama said at a health-care forum in March. "There are a lot of people [in the U.S.] who would love to be in that helping profession, and yet we just aren't providing the resources to get them trained—that's something we've got to fix." " (the link is http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db20090619_970033.htm http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/...) It's interesting that our president, who supports an increase in H1Bs for the high tech industry, would take this position where it comes to nursing. It's made me very cynical. Ultimately, this all comes down to power. Nurses have a shared experience (a specific education requirement), as well as a specific licensing procedure that can be used as a gateway. They also don't compete with each other the way programmers do (yes, programmers share knowledge, but a nurse a kaiser clearly isn't competing with a nurse at beth israel the way a programmer at google competes with one at microsoft). Nurses also have a very, very powerful union, and society pretty much backs them up, as the profession is held in high esteem. If a hospital tried to bring in foreign nurses, engage in "knowledge transfer", and then fire the older americans with higher salaries, the union would vote to strike, the hospital would cease to operate, the public would back the nurses, and management would completely capitulate. I don't even know if Obama sees the potential inconsistency. That's what power does. People often don't see themselves as "capitulating" to power. Instead, they respect power, and negotiate accordingly. I used to be much more in favor of "free markets". I still am in theory - what I say is "I'm all in favor of free markets - if you find one, please let me know, I'd love to participate". But at this point in my live, I've concluded that working in a "free market" is like wandering around the wild west without a gun. Sure, it'd be nice if we all put down our arms, but if you're the only one who does this, you're just a chump. To me, that's what free markets are - a chump's game. I applaud Prof Matloff for fighting this. People who have read my posts probably know that I'm in favor of a small number of visas for very talented people (in any field), but I think we're unintentionally eradicating our home-grown STEM (science technology engineering mathematics) workforce. The last line is especially chilling - parents in Silicon Valley know what's going on, and they no longer encourage their children to pursue the field. I actually think that this, in the long run, will severely hurt the US economy, and we're doing it to ourselves. Yes, allow talented workers to come here. No, don't issue so many visas that young Americans are rightly deterred from entering the field.

16 points by newacc 17y ago

He presents a lot of good ideas, but I'm weary of singling out H1B visa holders. It seems the US immigration policy is counterintuitive to just about every other countries' visa policy. It is hopelessly complex and random. It rewards family connection over any valuable skill. I could sponsor a distant cousin and he would get in before a highly talented programmer who doesn't have any famillial connections in the US. And as a programmer I feel like my best years are starting to be behind me. I've still got a fresh mind, but when I leave the office my wrists are killing me. I've just entered my 30s and I'm already telling my wife I don't know how long I'll be able to do the job I love. I won't discourage my son form seeking the same profession but I don't know if I'll have the same passion to encourage him in this profession. I sometimes wonder if programming will evolve to fit the human body or if the body can cope with the intricate work of banging at a keyboard constantly.

barrkel 17y ago
Banging at a keyboard constantly - you're doing it wrong. More thinking, less typing. That, or give up the Java.
newacc 17y ago
Just like financial, health and immigration reforms, Obama should also bring educational reforms ASAP - if americans don't want their jobs to be outsourced then they have to produce more engineers, nurses, doctors etc., period. The shortage of skilled labor is the major complain and its been actively voiced by all (including Bill Gates) ... the whole H1B issue has 2 major components: 1. shortage of skilled labor and 2. cheap labor available else where. There is also 3rd important issue which is exploitation of H1B visa holders by the employers (the body-shoppers) --- but above all if you have enough supply then employers won't line-up to hire outsiders the way they started doing since y2k, also because of high increase in salaries and other logistics in 3rd world countries (read India) the difference between insource and outsource is not that big anymore ... while the 3rd issue is more important for all who came here with a dream of easy riding and then getting disappointed also needs reforms in regulation and awareness.
anamax 17y ago
> He presents a lot of good ideas, but I'm weary of singling out H1B visa holders. It seems the US immigration policy is counterintuitive to just about every other countries' visa policy. It is hopelessly complex and random. It rewards family connection over any valuable skill. That paragraph is much too weak. H1Bs are a small fraction of US legal immigration. Illegal immigration swamps legal immigration. We could increase H1B by 10x and easily have less total immigration. The advocates for increased H1B are being played. We've had the bait and switch game on immigration before. We gave amnesty supposedly in return for effective enforcement. We didn't get enforcement. As to the whole "jobs Americans won't do", I've done farm labor. Also, when one of the meat packing plants lost many of its "undocumented" workers, folks who actually had a legal right to work in this country applied.
- queensnake 17y ago
  Just to boost your "Americans doing jobs Americans won't do" anecdote with a bigger one (at least in these hard times): http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=118219&provider=top&catid=188 http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=118219&pr...

queensnake 17y ago

This article is from last year. The Durbin/Grassley bill he talks about came and went, but it's back this year. Here's a pretty decent discussion: http://seeker.dice.com/olc/message.jspa?messageID=128406 http://seeker.dice.com/olc/message.jspa?messageID=128406

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]

geebee 17y ago

I recently read an article about visas for foreign nurses on businessweek. President Obama is quoted: " "The notion that we would have to import nurses makes absolutely no sense," Obama said at a health-care forum in March. "There are a lot of people [in the U.S.] who would love to be in that helping profession, and yet we just aren't providing the resources to get them trained—that's something we've got to fix." " (the link is http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db20090619_970033.htm http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/...) It's interesting that our president, who supports an increase in H1Bs for the high tech industry, would take this position where it comes to nursing. It's made me very cynical. Ultimately, this all comes down to power. Nurses have a shared experience (a specific education requirement), as well as a specific licensing procedure that can be used as a gateway. They also don't compete with each other the way programmers do (yes, programmers share knowledge, but a nurse a kaiser clearly isn't competing with a nurse at beth israel the way a programmer at google competes with one at microsoft). Nurses also have a very, very powerful union, and society pretty much backs them up, as the profession is held in high esteem. If a hospital tried to bring in foreign nurses, engage in "knowledge transfer", and then fire the older americans with higher salaries, the union would vote to strike, the hospital would cease to operate, the public would back the nurses, and management would completely capitulate. I don't even know if Obama sees the potential inconsistency. That's what power does. People often don't see themselves as "capitulating" to power. Instead, they respect power, and negotiate accordingly. I used to be much more in favor of "free markets". I still am in theory - what I say is "I'm all in favor of free markets - if you find one, please let me know, I'd love to participate". But at this point in my live, I've concluded that working in a "free market" is like wandering around the wild west without a gun. Sure, it'd be nice if we all put down our arms, but if you're the only one who does this, you're just a chump. To me, that's what free markets are - a chump's game. I applaud Prof Matloff for fighting this. People who have read my posts probably know that I'm in favor of a small number of visas for very talented people (in any field), but I think we're unintentionally eradicating our home-grown STEM (science technology engineering mathematics) workforce. The last line is especially chilling - parents in Silicon Valley know what's going on, and they no longer encourage their children to pursue the field. I actually think that this, in the long run, will severely hurt the US economy, and we're doing it to ourselves. Yes, allow talented workers to come here. No, don't issue so many visas that young Americans are rightly deterred from entering the field.