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reply to the edit - the existence of collective legal representation via a union does not by itself explain why these people feel they can act with impunity. I

reply to the edit - the existence of collective legal representation via a union does not by itself explain why these people feel they can act with impunity. I agree that having access to good lawyers does help a lot in employment cases, however I would say that either the police union is almost superhumanly competent in its legal defense of its members, or it is not the primary reason for police being allowed to behave like this.

toomuchtodo 13y ago
My argument is you believe you can act with impunity if you don't believe there will be any repercussions for your actions. So if it isn't police/LEO unions protecting officers from dismissal due to gross misconduct, who is it?
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  Other than union lawyers, the other folk involved could be other officers, heads of department, members of internal review boards, judges, magistrates, lab workers, district attorneys, politicians, etc. I agree that lawyers can help, but the lawyers are a mere formality if the process is corrupt in the first place. Unions are not normally some kind of magic shield, they are collective bargaining and pooled legal fees and have not provided the same level of protection that the police enjoy, in the other areas in which they exist.
- consonants 13y ago
  Look around the system that enables this behavior. The department itself, his peers, the judges he stands before regularly, the thin blue line, his constituency, and you'll see that even if the officers in question knew they didn't have legal impunity through their unions the same bullshit would happen with the same results. The system of checks and balances ensures that its executors have covered their ass and their friends' asses before justice is 'served'.
neurotech1 13y ago
A similar issue happens in medicine where to discipline or reprimand a doctor becomes a question of "Why is this doctor exceptionally bad" to warrant action. It can take a lot to get actual board sanctions against a marginally proficient doctor. Most major Hospitals have peer review processes known as a Morbidity and Mortality conference where doctors behind closed doors can speak freely about poor outcomes and ways to avoid future occurrences. The lack of major reprimands for marginal doctors is sometimes why people rush to lawsuits because standard review processes are usually avoid a doctor apologizing or admitting any blame. In aviation, near misses in airline or transport category flights are sometimes investigated as "serious incidents" even if no damage to the aircraft or injuries occurred. It seems if police adopted a similar review process where problems and potential misconduct are addressed in a non-adversarial way (M&M conference style) then attitudes and community relationship will benefit.
hga 13y ago
I am very, very anti-union (among other things, came of political age when Joseph Yablonski, his wife and daughter, and close to home, the driver of an explosives cargo truck were murdered by union thugs) and perhaps even more so anti-public union (a worse principle, but they kill fewer people), but they aren't sufficient to explain the Blue Line of Silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence that tells us that outside of a few, generally very small and rural departments, there are NO "good cops".
- Zigurd 13y ago
  > * aren't sufficient to explain the Blue Line of Silence* That's very true in this case. Cop unions are just one aspect of the problem, and if you look at this particular case, no cop has been disciplined. The union, which comes into play late in the game, really cannot be a factor except very indirectly. There are dozens of problems upstream of the union that need to be attended to first.

toomuchtodo 13y ago

My argument is you believe you can act with impunity if you don't believe there will be any repercussions for your actions. So if it isn't police/LEO unions protecting officers from dismissal due to gross misconduct, who is it?

moocowduckquack 13y ago
Other than union lawyers, the other folk involved could be other officers, heads of department, members of internal review boards, judges, magistrates, lab workers, district attorneys, politicians, etc. I agree that lawyers can help, but the lawyers are a mere formality if the process is corrupt in the first place. Unions are not normally some kind of magic shield, they are collective bargaining and pooled legal fees and have not provided the same level of protection that the police enjoy, in the other areas in which they exist.
consonants 13y ago
Look around the system that enables this behavior. The department itself, his peers, the judges he stands before regularly, the thin blue line, his constituency, and you'll see that even if the officers in question knew they didn't have legal impunity through their unions the same bullshit would happen with the same results. The system of checks and balances ensures that its executors have covered their ass and their friends' asses before justice is 'served'.

neurotech1 13y ago

A similar issue happens in medicine where to discipline or reprimand a doctor becomes a question of "Why is this doctor exceptionally bad" to warrant action. It can take a lot to get actual board sanctions against a marginally proficient doctor. Most major Hospitals have peer review processes known as a Morbidity and Mortality conference where doctors behind closed doors can speak freely about poor outcomes and ways to avoid future occurrences. The lack of major reprimands for marginal doctors is sometimes why people rush to lawsuits because standard review processes are usually avoid a doctor apologizing or admitting any blame. In aviation, near misses in airline or transport category flights are sometimes investigated as "serious incidents" even if no damage to the aircraft or injuries occurred. It seems if police adopted a similar review process where problems and potential misconduct are addressed in a non-adversarial way (M&M conference style) then attitudes and community relationship will benefit.

hga 13y ago

I am very, very anti-union (among other things, came of political age when Joseph Yablonski, his wife and daughter, and close to home, the driver of an explosives cargo truck were murdered by union thugs) and perhaps even more so anti-public union (a worse principle, but they kill fewer people), but they aren't sufficient to explain the Blue Line of Silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Code_of_Silence that tells us that outside of a few, generally very small and rural departments, there are NO "good cops".

Zigurd 13y ago
> * aren't sufficient to explain the Blue Line of Silence* That's very true in this case. Cop unions are just one aspect of the problem, and if you look at this particular case, no cop has been disciplined. The union, which comes into play late in the game, really cannot be a factor except very indirectly. There are dozens of problems upstream of the union that need to be attended to first.