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The only thing I find even more fascinating than his unwavering attempt to defend the despicable actions of the NSA is how these posts end up every time as the

by 1337biz 13y ago

The only thing I find even more fascinating than his unwavering attempt to defend the despicable actions of the NSA is how these posts end up every time as the top comments.

dhimes 13y ago
I don't think I've seen him defend their actions, just explain them. I, for one, appreciate it. He is in a sphere that I am not in, and were I to guess whether or not this was well-known behavior, I would have guessed not. And, apparently, I would have been wrong. So I thank tptacek for sharing what he knows that I don't know. That is, after all, why I come here.
- MisterWebz 13y ago
  That's a really good mindset to have. However, saying that what the NSA is doing is expected really doesn't explain anything.
  - dhimes 13y ago
    (Sorry for the late reply) It was unexpected for me, but I think it is important for us to understand that it wasn't unexpected for everybody. It's kind of like if we found out that Gitmo really wasn't exceptional. That would be important. It would imply that this something is a standard practice, many groups are aware of it and for some reason, over time and through many events, they've decided it's the best policy that they can hope for (or else they would have blown the whistle earlier). It means you should consider changing policy carefully, because the policy was put in place (and stayed there) not on a whim but rather after some consideration and re-consideration. Unless you think that all of these groups are filled with horrible people whose only aim is power and control you might have to allow that some of them have different insights into the problem from their experiences. Please understand that I'm not defending anything- just showing how it could be important to learn this type of information.
- 1337biz 13y ago
  But this is exactly the point! We could close down all news sites and stop reporting on all crimes - because, hey, the cop, the robber and the victim knew already hours ago that somebody had been robbed. The argument that something should be a no-story, just because I personally suspected/knew about it already for some time screams of delusional self-importance worldview to me.
- pyre 13y ago
  Don't you think that he's being a little inflammatory with statements this? But it is intellectually dishonest to pretend that people are just now discovering that NSA was breaking into computers around the world. By your own admission, you are just now discovering that the NSA was breaking into computers around the world.
  - se523 13y ago
    ^wrong assumptions. You're assuming he didn't know already. Why would one make a statement like that if one didn't know beforehand?
  - dhimes 13y ago
    (sorry for the late reply) Perhaps somewhat, but not really. I read the word 'people' in the sense of 'some group' instead of 'any single person.' In other words, 'people now know that eggs aren't bad for you' doesn't mean that every single person has learned this, just that the knowledge is in the generally accepted body of knowledge and those with business or interest in nutrition know it. At least that's how I read it.
    - pyre 13y ago
      But if a person does not know that the NSA is doing this (and possibly would tell you that they aren't doing it, were you to ask), then is that person being intellectually dishonest in acting like this knowledge is new to everyone? I think that leveling a claim of intellectual dishonesty at someone who thinks that everyone else was as ignorant as they were is a bit harsh, and sort of inflammatory. I think that most people would reasonably believe that if there were such strong signals that the NSA was doing this it would be closer to public knowledge than it was.
      - dhimes 13y ago
        I don't mean to drag this on forever, but I read the comment differently- as I said in the reply linked below. In short, that person isn't being intellectually dishonest. But the organizations who did know better and are pretending otherwise are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6796335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6796335
- coldtea 13y ago
  >I don't think I've seen him defend their actions, just explain them. Explain them as "business as usual" to take away the outrage. Might as well have been explaining the actions of the KKK.
  - dhimes 13y ago
    (sorry for the late reply) I didn't take it that way. In fact, you could argue for more outrage: "There are certain groups who knew about this behavior all along and for them to pretend that this is news to them is bullshit" is how I read it. So if you are going to be outraged, you should be outraged at the groups "in the know" as well.
seiji 13y ago
I don't think it's defending. It's one part nerd-based "I've known about this forever. It's obvious!" and one part "this is their purpose — yes, it's abhorrent, but that's the entire mission, so don't be surprised when they do what they are chartered to do."
- mercer 13y ago
  I'd take a bet that it's mostly the former (and the latter is rather similar to it). It's not just that some people get off on pointing out that something is 'obvious', it's that lots of other people feel the same way. So they upvote. A somewhat similar example that always comes to mind in these cases (and for some reason happens relatively often among my 'geekier' friends) is when someone says 'I don't dream'. There's always a smart-ass around to point out that everybody dreams, but they just don't always remember it. I don't know if that's true, but that's irrelevant.. It might be technically true, but it's pedantic and misses the point of the statement. And it cuts off a potentially interesting conversation for the sole purpose of making this person sound smart. I've noticed myself doing this too (I privately call it 'snoping' someone), and have been trying to avoid it as much as possible since I became aware of it.

by 1337biz 13y ago

The only thing I find even more fascinating than his unwavering attempt to defend the despicable actions of the NSA is how these posts end up every time as the top comments.

dhimes 13y ago

I don't think I've seen him defend their actions, just explain them. I, for one, appreciate it. He is in a sphere that I am not in, and were I to guess whether or not this was well-known behavior, I would have guessed not. And, apparently, I would have been wrong. So I thank tptacek for sharing what he knows that I don't know. That is, after all, why I come here.

MisterWebz 13y ago
That's a really good mindset to have. However, saying that what the NSA is doing is expected really doesn't explain anything.
- dhimes 13y ago
  (Sorry for the late reply) It was unexpected for me, but I think it is important for us to understand that it wasn't unexpected for everybody. It's kind of like if we found out that Gitmo really wasn't exceptional. That would be important. It would imply that this something is a standard practice, many groups are aware of it and for some reason, over time and through many events, they've decided it's the best policy that they can hope for (or else they would have blown the whistle earlier). It means you should consider changing policy carefully, because the policy was put in place (and stayed there) not on a whim but rather after some consideration and re-consideration. Unless you think that all of these groups are filled with horrible people whose only aim is power and control you might have to allow that some of them have different insights into the problem from their experiences. Please understand that I'm not defending anything- just showing how it could be important to learn this type of information.
1337biz 13y ago
But this is exactly the point! We could close down all news sites and stop reporting on all crimes - because, hey, the cop, the robber and the victim knew already hours ago that somebody had been robbed. The argument that something should be a no-story, just because I personally suspected/knew about it already for some time screams of delusional self-importance worldview to me.
pyre 13y ago
Don't you think that he's being a little inflammatory with statements this? But it is intellectually dishonest to pretend that people are just now discovering that NSA was breaking into computers around the world. By your own admission, you are just now discovering that the NSA was breaking into computers around the world.
- se523 13y ago
  ^wrong assumptions. You're assuming he didn't know already. Why would one make a statement like that if one didn't know beforehand?
- dhimes 13y ago
  (sorry for the late reply) Perhaps somewhat, but not really. I read the word 'people' in the sense of 'some group' instead of 'any single person.' In other words, 'people now know that eggs aren't bad for you' doesn't mean that every single person has learned this, just that the knowledge is in the generally accepted body of knowledge and those with business or interest in nutrition know it. At least that's how I read it.
  - pyre 13y ago
    But if a person does not know that the NSA is doing this (and possibly would tell you that they aren't doing it, were you to ask), then is that person being intellectually dishonest in acting like this knowledge is new to everyone? I think that leveling a claim of intellectual dishonesty at someone who thinks that everyone else was as ignorant as they were is a bit harsh, and sort of inflammatory. I think that most people would reasonably believe that if there were such strong signals that the NSA was doing this it would be closer to public knowledge than it was.
    - dhimes 13y ago
      I don't mean to drag this on forever, but I read the comment differently- as I said in the reply linked below. In short, that person isn't being intellectually dishonest. But the organizations who did know better and are pretending otherwise are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6796335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6796335
coldtea 13y ago
>I don't think I've seen him defend their actions, just explain them. Explain them as "business as usual" to take away the outrage. Might as well have been explaining the actions of the KKK.
- dhimes 13y ago
  (sorry for the late reply) I didn't take it that way. In fact, you could argue for more outrage: "There are certain groups who knew about this behavior all along and for them to pretend that this is news to them is bullshit" is how I read it. So if you are going to be outraged, you should be outraged at the groups "in the know" as well.

seiji 13y ago

I don't think it's defending. It's one part nerd-based "I've known about this forever. It's obvious!" and one part "this is their purpose — yes, it's abhorrent, but that's the entire mission, so don't be surprised when they do what they are chartered to do."

mercer 13y ago
I'd take a bet that it's mostly the former (and the latter is rather similar to it). It's not just that some people get off on pointing out that something is 'obvious', it's that lots of other people feel the same way. So they upvote. A somewhat similar example that always comes to mind in these cases (and for some reason happens relatively often among my 'geekier' friends) is when someone says 'I don't dream'. There's always a smart-ass around to point out that everybody dreams, but they just don't always remember it. I don't know if that's true, but that's irrelevant.. It might be technically true, but it's pedantic and misses the point of the statement. And it cuts off a potentially interesting conversation for the sole purpose of making this person sound smart. I've noticed myself doing this too (I privately call it 'snoping' someone), and have been trying to avoid it as much as possible since I became aware of it.