12 ms·

Store owner installs surveillance cameras to spy on police

153 points by fraqed 13y ago

orky56 13y ago
At some point even the officers need to be held accountable for their actions. There has to be better way to get feedback from their departments rather than creating a media firestorm when one of these stories/videos go viral.
- doorhammer 13y ago
  I would like to think the point should be whenever they do something provably illegal (that's oversimplified, but you get my drift). I mean, there'll always be a grey area, but this story seems a little nutty. I totally agree that catalyst for localized change (if there's even any of that in this case) shouldn't be, "Oh shit, we got caught and now it's on the news."
- pavel_lishin 13y ago
  > At some point even the officers need to be held accountable for their actions. At some point? At every point. And I don't understand the use of "even". We are all responsible for our actions.
joering2 13y ago
Eventually enough cars will be equipped with multi-ways dashcams and it will be a matter of time when someone writes an app to recognize cop cars and pin them on the map, 24/7/365. Just for our own safety...
- cinquemb 13y ago
  Cars? Let's go deeper: How about clothing with built in cameras (and possibly other sensors) that look up every face one comes across on the internet (facebook/google seem like good data sets to start) to match with an identity and then for actions deemed unseemingly by the individual, they can use their identity and find relatives/friends/children and send a message with the clip and a caption "Here's how your friend/dad/daughter, is conducting themselves admirably today, you should be proud of them."
gojomo 13y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance
- aivaomo 13y ago
  Google Glass creeps me out with its privacy implications, but if it gains wide adoption this will be a significant upside.
moocowduckquack 13y ago
How do these police keep their jobs? I understand that there is corruption and the thin blue line nonsense, but 62 arrests of the same employee for alledgedly trespassing in his place of work is just insane. Even if you were a total bastard you would get rid of anyone you were responsible for who was pulling that kind of crap, as long as you had even the slightest instinct for self-preservation.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  Unions. EDIT: If you want to downvote, please prove me wrong. I'm happy to provide citations where law enforcement is responsible for criminal conduct, up to and including theft and shooting people's dogs for no reason, and where they're defended by their unions.
  - moocowduckquack 13y ago
    Other groups have unions as well and you can fire them all day long for criminal gross misconduct.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - erichocean 13y ago
    Government Unions.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    > I'm happy to provide citations I don't believe you. I think you'd be sad to do it. Otherwise you would have already. And having lied about one small thing, why should I believe that you haven't lied about other, bigger things?
    - toomuchtodo 13y ago
      I know you're sarcastic, but what the hell. http://www.policemisconduct.net/ http://www.policemisconduct.net/ http://www.policemisconduct.net/maps/searchable-map-2009-2010-misconduct-incidents/ http://www.policemisconduct.net/maps/searchable-map-2009-201... There are plenty of incidents in Seattle you might be interested in.
alextingle 13y ago
This has never been more relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y
- rquantz 13y ago
  I believe that "looking at me in a funny way" constitutes probable cause in NYC.
  - pstuart 13y ago
    I've been stopped by the police for turning to look at their car as they passed by me. I'm white, clean cut, and middle-aged and was around the block from where I've lived for over a decade. My crime? I was walking barefoot down the sidewalk.
- tonyedgecombe 13y ago
  That was my first thought, except the reality seems worse.
Zigurd 13y ago
It will be interesting to see how long social sharing of face recognition data is kept away from the general public. Then this store owner could know in advance of any interaction if the cop outside is a good guy or not.
utahexpat 13y ago
In Moab UT and other cities in UT, after speaking with many bartenders, you'll find out that indoor cameras are to protect employees from harassment by alcohol police. Including falsifying reports, and blackmail.
Sunlis 13y ago
Some of the mentioned videos are available in this Miami Herald article: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in-miami-gardens-store-video-catches.html http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in...
refurb 13y ago
I'm a little confused. In order to be arrested for trespassing, doesn't the owner of the property have to confirm that the person is not allowed on the property? There is more behind the scenes going on.
- _delirium 13y ago
  In order to be convicted, yes, but police don't usually need to actually confirm to make the initial arrest. However if it turns out an arrest for trespassing was mistaken, because there was actually permission from the property owner, a properly functioning police system should certainly not arrest the same person for allegedly trespassing on the same property.
- RougeFemme 13y ago
  In order to be convicted, yes. . .but not in order to be arrested.
  - refurb 13y ago
    I still don't understand. How can you be arrested in a public place unless said owner said you can't be there?
    - kenjackson 13y ago
      They can arrest you for murder, and then say it was a mistake. If there is no disciplinary action against them then they could do it to you everyday.
      - refurb 13y ago
        As far as understand, a person can be arrested for one of two reasons: 1) an arrest warrant exists for said person 2) a police office has reason to believe (gathered evidence, etc) that said person committed a felony I agree with you that a cop can arrest someone for a very weak reason (he looked like the suspect), but arresting the same person 62 times when it was apparent the guy worked there? Something is up.
consonants 13y ago
Cop killers are heros.
- refurb 13y ago
  Classy. Very classy.
  - consonants 13y ago
    Care to expound? If men with guns routinely harassed, assaulted, kidnapped, killed and ruined the standing of your community and every legal avenue of prevention was exhausted it is the victims' right to do whatever necessary to protect themselves from their aggressors. The only way this will ever stop is if people stop romanticising law enforcement and vanquish the tyranny it has over ethnic communities.
- chris_wot 13y ago
  Killers aren't heroes. That's the most stupid thing I've read on HN. Please stop.
- noarchy 13y ago
  Context is important. Just killing people who have not harmed you isn't an answer. But if you're talking about shooting back, then an interesting conversation is possible.
RougeFemme 13y ago
Here's the original Miami-Dade article, which was printed the day before the one referenced earlier in the thread: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in-miami-gardens-store-video-catches.html http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in... In the original article, the owner explains what he originally thought he was agreeing to - and why: "About three years ago, Saleh said police asked him to participate in what they called a “zero-tolerance” program to reduce crime. He gladly signed up, not realizing at the time how much it would impact his business and customers. Under the program, Miami Gardens police are given broad powers to stop and arrest people who appear to be loitering or trespassing at the participating business. The idea behind the program is based on the “broken window theory,’’ a concept that has been employed by police around the country. The theory holds that a community that rids itself of petty crime, such as shoplifting, vandalism and trespassing, can eradicate more serious crime because criminals won’t have anywhere to hide." This is also the justification for NYC's "stop and frisk" program which has been in the news so much lately. For the record, I'm not a fan.
imahboob 13y ago
with chips like these - who needs criminals
contingencies 13y ago
Within two weeks of arriving in the US I had been arrested and hauled out of a bar by two police officers, thrown over a car, and had my wallet and pockets rifled through. My crime? Talking to a cop's girlfriend. Of course, we won't get in to equally informative stories of police in China, India, Thailand or the United Kingdom. Having collected a fair range of experience across the world, I think I've now discovered where my misunderstanding originally arose: I had the wrong idea about what "police" meant. I see now that it's clearly nothing more than an internationally popular short form for "useless and corrupt thug-cum-bureaucrat".
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

153 points by fraqed 13y ago

At some point even the officers need to be held accountable for their actions. There has to be better way to get feedback from their departments rather than creating a media firestorm when one of these stories/videos go viral.

doorhammer 13y ago
I would like to think the point should be whenever they do something provably illegal (that's oversimplified, but you get my drift). I mean, there'll always be a grey area, but this story seems a little nutty. I totally agree that catalyst for localized change (if there's even any of that in this case) shouldn't be, "Oh shit, we got caught and now it's on the news."
pavel_lishin 13y ago
> At some point even the officers need to be held accountable for their actions. At some point? At every point. And I don't understand the use of "even". We are all responsible for our actions.

joering2 13y ago

Eventually enough cars will be equipped with multi-ways dashcams and it will be a matter of time when someone writes an app to recognize cop cars and pin them on the map, 24/7/365. Just for our own safety...

cinquemb 13y ago
Cars? Let's go deeper: How about clothing with built in cameras (and possibly other sensors) that look up every face one comes across on the internet (facebook/google seem like good data sets to start) to match with an identity and then for actions deemed unseemingly by the individual, they can use their identity and find relatives/friends/children and send a message with the clip and a caption "Here's how your friend/dad/daughter, is conducting themselves admirably today, you should be proud of them."

gojomo 13y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sousveillance

aivaomo 13y ago
Google Glass creeps me out with its privacy implications, but if it gains wide adoption this will be a significant upside.

moocowduckquack 13y ago

How do these police keep their jobs? I understand that there is corruption and the thin blue line nonsense, but 62 arrests of the same employee for alledgedly trespassing in his place of work is just insane. Even if you were a total bastard you would get rid of anyone you were responsible for who was pulling that kind of crap, as long as you had even the slightest instinct for self-preservation.

toomuchtodo 13y ago
Unions. EDIT: If you want to downvote, please prove me wrong. I'm happy to provide citations where law enforcement is responsible for criminal conduct, up to and including theft and shooting people's dogs for no reason, and where they're defended by their unions.
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  Other groups have unions as well and you can fire them all day long for criminal gross misconduct.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- erichocean 13y ago
  Government Unions.
- saraid216 13y ago
  > I'm happy to provide citations I don't believe you. I think you'd be sad to do it. Otherwise you would have already. And having lied about one small thing, why should I believe that you haven't lied about other, bigger things?
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    I know you're sarcastic, but what the hell. http://www.policemisconduct.net/ http://www.policemisconduct.net/ http://www.policemisconduct.net/maps/searchable-map-2009-2010-misconduct-incidents/ http://www.policemisconduct.net/maps/searchable-map-2009-201... There are plenty of incidents in Seattle you might be interested in.

alextingle 13y ago

This has never been more relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8EpfyCG2Y

rquantz 13y ago
I believe that "looking at me in a funny way" constitutes probable cause in NYC.
- pstuart 13y ago
  I've been stopped by the police for turning to look at their car as they passed by me. I'm white, clean cut, and middle-aged and was around the block from where I've lived for over a decade. My crime? I was walking barefoot down the sidewalk.
tonyedgecombe 13y ago
That was my first thought, except the reality seems worse.

Zigurd 13y ago

It will be interesting to see how long social sharing of face recognition data is kept away from the general public. Then this store owner could know in advance of any interaction if the cop outside is a good guy or not.

utahexpat 13y ago

In Moab UT and other cities in UT, after speaking with many bartenders, you'll find out that indoor cameras are to protect employees from harassment by alcohol police. Including falsifying reports, and blackmail.

Sunlis 13y ago

Some of the mentioned videos are available in this Miami Herald article: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in-miami-gardens-store-video-catches.html http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in...

refurb 13y ago

I'm a little confused. In order to be arrested for trespassing, doesn't the owner of the property have to confirm that the person is not allowed on the property? There is more behind the scenes going on.

_delirium 13y ago
In order to be convicted, yes, but police don't usually need to actually confirm to make the initial arrest. However if it turns out an arrest for trespassing was mistaken, because there was actually permission from the property owner, a properly functioning police system should certainly not arrest the same person for allegedly trespassing on the same property.
RougeFemme 13y ago
In order to be convicted, yes. . .but not in order to be arrested.
- refurb 13y ago
  I still don't understand. How can you be arrested in a public place unless said owner said you can't be there?
  - kenjackson 13y ago
    They can arrest you for murder, and then say it was a mistake. If there is no disciplinary action against them then they could do it to you everyday.
    - refurb 13y ago
      As far as understand, a person can be arrested for one of two reasons: 1) an arrest warrant exists for said person 2) a police office has reason to believe (gathered evidence, etc) that said person committed a felony I agree with you that a cop can arrest someone for a very weak reason (he looked like the suspect), but arresting the same person 62 times when it was apparent the guy worked there? Something is up.

consonants 13y ago

Cop killers are heros.

refurb 13y ago
Classy. Very classy.
- consonants 13y ago
  Care to expound? If men with guns routinely harassed, assaulted, kidnapped, killed and ruined the standing of your community and every legal avenue of prevention was exhausted it is the victims' right to do whatever necessary to protect themselves from their aggressors. The only way this will ever stop is if people stop romanticising law enforcement and vanquish the tyranny it has over ethnic communities.
chris_wot 13y ago
Killers aren't heroes. That's the most stupid thing I've read on HN. Please stop.
noarchy 13y ago
Context is important. Just killing people who have not harmed you isn't an answer. But if you're talking about shooting back, then an interesting conversation is possible.

RougeFemme 13y ago

Here's the original Miami-Dade article, which was printed the day before the one referenced earlier in the thread: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in-miami-gardens-store-video-catches.html http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/21/v-fullstory/3769823/in... In the original article, the owner explains what he originally thought he was agreeing to - and why: "About three years ago, Saleh said police asked him to participate in what they called a “zero-tolerance” program to reduce crime. He gladly signed up, not realizing at the time how much it would impact his business and customers. Under the program, Miami Gardens police are given broad powers to stop and arrest people who appear to be loitering or trespassing at the participating business. The idea behind the program is based on the “broken window theory,’’ a concept that has been employed by police around the country. The theory holds that a community that rids itself of petty crime, such as shoplifting, vandalism and trespassing, can eradicate more serious crime because criminals won’t have anywhere to hide." This is also the justification for NYC's "stop and frisk" program which has been in the news so much lately. For the record, I'm not a fan.

imahboob 13y ago

with chips like these - who needs criminals

contingencies 13y ago

Within two weeks of arriving in the US I had been arrested and hauled out of a bar by two police officers, thrown over a car, and had my wallet and pockets rifled through. My crime? Talking to a cop's girlfriend. Of course, we won't get in to equally informative stories of police in China, India, Thailand or the United Kingdom. Having collected a fair range of experience across the world, I think I've now discovered where my misunderstanding originally arose: I had the wrong idea about what "police" meant. I see now that it's clearly nothing more than an internationally popular short form for "useless and corrupt thug-cum-bureaucrat".

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]