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How is the author overlooking the most obvious course of action the Chinese government could take? China could easily block Google outright -- while the Github

by FreakyT 13y ago

How is the author overlooking the most obvious course of action the Chinese government could take? China could easily block Google outright -- while the Github reversal the author mentions is certainly surprising, Google represents only a small sliver of Chinese search engine use [1] and probably wouldn't result in much of a mass outcry. [1] http://thenextweb.com/asia/2013/09/17/baidu-still-tops-chinas-search-market-with-63-share-as-merger-shakes-up-chasing-pack/ http://thenextweb.com/asia/2013/09/17/baidu-still-tops-china...

dec0dedab0de 13y ago
The article specifically mentions China blocking Google. “Google! Do it! If they don't block you, freedom wins. If they do block you, there will be much more opposition to censorship inside China and the system will be forced to change, thus freedom wins too!”
- smoyer 13y ago
  The article describes how the their (small?) group of activists is willing to "bet the house", and that the potential outcome could include Google being blocked. It's nice that they're willing to see Google blocked, but they're not actually giving up anything if that happens. Google on the other hand is a public company and has a lot more to lose if they're blocked. What would the shareholders say to Google risking the ad revenue from Chinese Internet users? And they're already fighting for marketshare with Baidu ... they could end up losing enough ground to never recover. The activists might find that tack is a far better way to proceed. Google could easily just say "switching to HTTPS is in accordance with our policies throughout the rest of the world and it's (one way) to protect Chinese users from spying by the NSA (and others). Actively redirecting blocked requests to cached pages would on the other hand offend the Chinese government and would signal Google's true intent. If you're going to be activists, you need to have a much better understanding of corporate motivations as well as become much more tuned into politics.
  - teawithcarl 13y ago
    Sincerely, that's not correct. GreatFire.org is at the cutting-edge of research (including from Harvard, Princeton, and many software engineers globally and in China) to end the censorship in China. GreatFire.org is on the front lines of solving censorship. This idea is new research that works. Google has a preponderant position in search in 125 nations, and is not hurting that much from retreating to HongKong. Baidu can't even get a foothold going in Japan. On the other hand, the blunt mercantilism which keeps Google, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook out of China stands to weaken by applying this excellent idea. Google actually may benefit by responding adroitly to the intentional evisceration of Google by the Chinese government. The beauty of this research is that it probes a blind spot in China policy not easily remedied, while hitting the one place China cares about - money and the national economy.
    - smoyer 13y ago
      I won't dispute that GreatFire.org is at the cutting edge of research, I just think the solution is naive. And you haven't addressed my real point which is that they're giving up nothing (certainly nothing of their own) if Google gets kicked out of China but you've conceded my point that there's an economic reason Google has behaved the way it has. All I was stating is that part one of the two-part proposal (encrypting all traffic) should be done on it's own - that providing access to blocked content took Google from a passive position to an active one. Most of the students at Tiananmen Square didn't risk getting run over by a tank, but we still talk about the fact they had the courage to rally. If GreatFire.org wants to decides to take on the tank, that's fine, but it's not fair to push Google in front of the tank ... that's their decision to make. P.S. The article also discusses Google's "Don't be evil" model ... I agree that it would be admirable to also try to abate evil where they can. P.P.S. After watching the Matt Damon video in another posting, I'm reconsidering blind obedience myself!
      - charliesmith 13y ago
        We're not giving up anything of our own, but we really have nothing to give up. If Google ignores this and life goes on, life will go on for us, too. We will continue to do what we are doing. If I could do what we suggest Google does, then I would. But we are not Google. They have the power to do this, they can do it now - we should not have to wait for ten years. Eric Schmidt is saying today that Russia is taking cues from China on web censorship - this idea can stop them, too. It can stop all of them.
teawithcarl 13y ago
Sincerely, you're wrong. GreatFire.org exists to end China's censorship - they have pondered long, researched, and have not missed your point. China's weakness is they cannot censor where it crimps the economy too much. Read: Collateral Freedom https://openitp.org/pdfs/CollateralFreedom.pdf https://openitp.org/pdfs/CollateralFreedom.pdf China blocking all Google products would make such a backlash in China that it's not a feasible move for the China government. Just as with Github, too many people would complain about losing $$ in the economy. Gmail, Android, Chrome, Picasa, Google Drive, Docs, Translate, Maps, Scholar, Books, Earth, AppEngine, Research, Hangouts. Too many Chinese rely on these financially, and in their jobs. GreatFire.org is right. This is a superb defrocking of censorship that will work. The real question is why isn't Google doing this.
- magicalist 13y ago
  To be fair, a number of those are regularly and/or completely blocked in China, e.g. Google Drive[1] and encrypted.google.com[2] completely (if I'm reading those right) and gmail[3] often enough to be notable. [1] https://zh.greatfire.org/https/drive.google.com https://zh.greatfire.org/https/drive.google.com [2] https://zh.greatfire.org/encrypted.google.com https://zh.greatfire.org/encrypted.google.com [3] https://zh.greatfire.org/https/mail.google.com https://zh.greatfire.org/https/mail.google.com
  - kryptiskt 13y ago
    Also, Android in China is completely degoogleified. No Google accounts, no Play, no GMail...
    - yapcguy 13y ago
      Surely that's a good thing?!
  - teawithcarl 13y ago
    The translation of your link for Gmail says Gmail is (only) 9% blocked in China.
PhasmaFelis 13y ago
> How is the author overlooking the most obvious course of action the Chinese government could take? He didn't overlook it, he addressed it specifically. Read the article.

by FreakyT 13y ago

dec0dedab0de 13y ago

The article specifically mentions China blocking Google. “Google! Do it! If they don't block you, freedom wins. If they do block you, there will be much more opposition to censorship inside China and the system will be forced to change, thus freedom wins too!”

smoyer 13y ago
The article describes how the their (small?) group of activists is willing to "bet the house", and that the potential outcome could include Google being blocked. It's nice that they're willing to see Google blocked, but they're not actually giving up anything if that happens. Google on the other hand is a public company and has a lot more to lose if they're blocked. What would the shareholders say to Google risking the ad revenue from Chinese Internet users? And they're already fighting for marketshare with Baidu ... they could end up losing enough ground to never recover. The activists might find that tack is a far better way to proceed. Google could easily just say "switching to HTTPS is in accordance with our policies throughout the rest of the world and it's (one way) to protect Chinese users from spying by the NSA (and others). Actively redirecting blocked requests to cached pages would on the other hand offend the Chinese government and would signal Google's true intent. If you're going to be activists, you need to have a much better understanding of corporate motivations as well as become much more tuned into politics.
- teawithcarl 13y ago
  Sincerely, that's not correct. GreatFire.org is at the cutting-edge of research (including from Harvard, Princeton, and many software engineers globally and in China) to end the censorship in China. GreatFire.org is on the front lines of solving censorship. This idea is new research that works. Google has a preponderant position in search in 125 nations, and is not hurting that much from retreating to HongKong. Baidu can't even get a foothold going in Japan. On the other hand, the blunt mercantilism which keeps Google, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook out of China stands to weaken by applying this excellent idea. Google actually may benefit by responding adroitly to the intentional evisceration of Google by the Chinese government. The beauty of this research is that it probes a blind spot in China policy not easily remedied, while hitting the one place China cares about - money and the national economy.
  - smoyer 13y ago
    I won't dispute that GreatFire.org is at the cutting edge of research, I just think the solution is naive. And you haven't addressed my real point which is that they're giving up nothing (certainly nothing of their own) if Google gets kicked out of China but you've conceded my point that there's an economic reason Google has behaved the way it has. All I was stating is that part one of the two-part proposal (encrypting all traffic) should be done on it's own - that providing access to blocked content took Google from a passive position to an active one. Most of the students at Tiananmen Square didn't risk getting run over by a tank, but we still talk about the fact they had the courage to rally. If GreatFire.org wants to decides to take on the tank, that's fine, but it's not fair to push Google in front of the tank ... that's their decision to make. P.S. The article also discusses Google's "Don't be evil" model ... I agree that it would be admirable to also try to abate evil where they can. P.P.S. After watching the Matt Damon video in another posting, I'm reconsidering blind obedience myself!
    - charliesmith 13y ago
      We're not giving up anything of our own, but we really have nothing to give up. If Google ignores this and life goes on, life will go on for us, too. We will continue to do what we are doing. If I could do what we suggest Google does, then I would. But we are not Google. They have the power to do this, they can do it now - we should not have to wait for ten years. Eric Schmidt is saying today that Russia is taking cues from China on web censorship - this idea can stop them, too. It can stop all of them.

teawithcarl 13y ago

Sincerely, you're wrong. GreatFire.org exists to end China's censorship - they have pondered long, researched, and have not missed your point. China's weakness is they cannot censor where it crimps the economy too much. Read: Collateral Freedom https://openitp.org/pdfs/CollateralFreedom.pdf https://openitp.org/pdfs/CollateralFreedom.pdf China blocking all Google products would make such a backlash in China that it's not a feasible move for the China government. Just as with Github, too many people would complain about losing $$ in the economy. Gmail, Android, Chrome, Picasa, Google Drive, Docs, Translate, Maps, Scholar, Books, Earth, AppEngine, Research, Hangouts. Too many Chinese rely on these financially, and in their jobs. GreatFire.org is right. This is a superb defrocking of censorship that will work. The real question is why isn't Google doing this.

magicalist 13y ago
To be fair, a number of those are regularly and/or completely blocked in China, e.g. Google Drive[1] and encrypted.google.com[2] completely (if I'm reading those right) and gmail[3] often enough to be notable. [1] https://zh.greatfire.org/https/drive.google.com https://zh.greatfire.org/https/drive.google.com [2] https://zh.greatfire.org/encrypted.google.com https://zh.greatfire.org/encrypted.google.com [3] https://zh.greatfire.org/https/mail.google.com https://zh.greatfire.org/https/mail.google.com
- kryptiskt 13y ago
  Also, Android in China is completely degoogleified. No Google accounts, no Play, no GMail...
  - yapcguy 13y ago
    Surely that's a good thing?!
- teawithcarl 13y ago
  The translation of your link for Gmail says Gmail is (only) 9% blocked in China.

PhasmaFelis 13y ago

> How is the author overlooking the most obvious course of action the Chinese government could take? He didn't overlook it, he addressed it specifically. Read the article.