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That was prevented only because of strong unions effectively setting a minimum wage for their industries. Hence why non union workers where getting shafted.

by elnate 13y ago

onli 13y ago
The history of early unions in Germany is btw quite interesting, especially in Weimar and before WW I, if I'm not mistaken. It is not so long ago that workers had to seriously strike to achieve any improvements of unimaginable horrible work conditions. And it is not so long ago that the german army was used to end those strikes using lethal force. Especially the Ruhrgebiet has quite some stories of that regard. It shines an interesting light on the history of the german social democrats and their relationship to the communist party, given both their interest in the approval of the workers, and is a - mildly put - embarrassing comparison to the state of the modern SPD and its political vision (its Gestaltungswille). Might be a bit OT for non-germans, but most countries - apart from the USA, afaik - should have a similar part of their history.
- yk 13y ago
  Actually the US had a rather strong worker movement, it just played out quite differently than in Europe. So in the US the unions did quite often manage to get a corporate pension plan, while the European ones did get a government pensions. Similar with health care and many work place regulations.
  - mjn 13y ago
    The U.S. labor movement did used to be stronger than it is now, but it was never really that strong. At the peak in the 1950s, about 35% of workers worked in unionized workplaces. That's a very low figure for Europe, where typically 70%+ of workers work in unionized workplaces (here in Denmark it is 80-90%).
notahacker 13y ago
That implies an interesting argument in favour of a standard minimum wage from a right-leaning perspective; not having it greatly strengthens trade union influence and consequentially results in worse distortion of market wages.
mjn 13y ago
It's a few years old now, but Table 5 here is interesting from that perspective, showing percentage of workers in countries without minimum wages, who are instead covered by a union minimum wage: http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s... Countries like Denmark and Austria are sometimes touted as examples of how you can have no minimum wage and still good working conditions, but they really do have something very close to a minimum wage. It's negotiated through a corporatist labor framework rather than passed directly by a legislature, but the end result is that 98% of Austrian workers and about 85% of Danish workers are covered by a minimum wage (in Denmark it is 109 DKK, about €15/hr). Germany by contrast has much lower rates of union coverage (69% as of 2003, and rapidly dropping), making that mechanism less effective. One solution could be to introduce a de jure minimum wage, as Germany now seems likely to do. Another solution could be to change Germany's labor framework so it's closer to the one that prevails in Denmark and Austria, countries that have systems that more or less guarantee that large workplaces are always unionized.

That was prevented only because of strong unions effectively setting a minimum wage for their industries. Hence why non union workers where getting shafted.

by elnate 13y ago

That was prevented only because of strong unions effectively setting a minimum wage for their industries. Hence why non union workers where getting shafted.

onli 13y ago

The history of early unions in Germany is btw quite interesting, especially in Weimar and before WW I, if I'm not mistaken. It is not so long ago that workers had to seriously strike to achieve any improvements of unimaginable horrible work conditions. And it is not so long ago that the german army was used to end those strikes using lethal force. Especially the Ruhrgebiet has quite some stories of that regard. It shines an interesting light on the history of the german social democrats and their relationship to the communist party, given both their interest in the approval of the workers, and is a - mildly put - embarrassing comparison to the state of the modern SPD and its political vision (its Gestaltungswille). Might be a bit OT for non-germans, but most countries - apart from the USA, afaik - should have a similar part of their history.

yk 13y ago
Actually the US had a rather strong worker movement, it just played out quite differently than in Europe. So in the US the unions did quite often manage to get a corporate pension plan, while the European ones did get a government pensions. Similar with health care and many work place regulations.
- mjn 13y ago
  The U.S. labor movement did used to be stronger than it is now, but it was never really that strong. At the peak in the 1950s, about 35% of workers worked in unionized workplaces. That's a very low figure for Europe, where typically 70%+ of workers work in unionized workplaces (here in Denmark it is 80-90%).

notahacker 13y ago

That implies an interesting argument in favour of a standard minimum wage from a right-leaning perspective; not having it greatly strengthens trade union influence and consequentially results in worse distortion of market wages.

mjn 13y ago

It's a few years old now, but Table 5 here is interesting from that perspective, showing percentage of workers in countries without minimum wages, who are instead covered by a union minimum wage: http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s.htm http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/2005/07/study/tn0507101s... Countries like Denmark and Austria are sometimes touted as examples of how you can have no minimum wage and still good working conditions, but they really do have something very close to a minimum wage. It's negotiated through a corporatist labor framework rather than passed directly by a legislature, but the end result is that 98% of Austrian workers and about 85% of Danish workers are covered by a minimum wage (in Denmark it is 109 DKK, about €15/hr). Germany by contrast has much lower rates of union coverage (69% as of 2003, and rapidly dropping), making that mechanism less effective. One solution could be to introduce a de jure minimum wage, as Germany now seems likely to do. Another solution could be to change Germany's labor framework so it's closer to the one that prevails in Denmark and Austria, countries that have systems that more or less guarantee that large workplaces are always unionized.