5 ms·

Ha. That made me laugh. The point is if you make someone look extremely evil, more "normal" people are less likely to show any support or sympathy towards them,

by loceng 13y ago

Ha. That made me laugh. The point is if you make someone look extremely evil, more "normal" people are less likely to show any support or sympathy towards them, right? Some who might have been neutral about a black market where you can buy drugs (that the government deems illegal) who would have supported the person who owned/managed it, whereas now I imagine they'd be less likely speak up.

sliverstorm 13y ago
Right, but that's like arguing the government clearly controls the weather, because of how convenient it would be for them if they could. You're just saying, "Well I could see them setting him up" and hoping that counts as evidence.
- loceng 13y ago
  So, you're trying to twist my words into saying "this is what is happening and I am claiming it to be true" - however what I'm saying is that it's a reasonable possibility - I am not saying there is proof behind it or that it's a real occurrence.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    How do we know it is a reasonable possibility? We have zero evidence to suggest it is the case.
    - loceng 13y ago
      Probability is based in part on logic using past occurrences as references - and not the present moment or determining conviction.
      - krapp 13y ago
        what "past occurrences" of the government fabricating evidence in a federal trial lend weight to the probability of their doing so in this case? You've cited propaganda and the NSA lying to congress as as possible evidence, but I believe this to be specious, unless the premise is that the government merely lies about everything, and fabricates evidence just because it can. You might as well suggest that because soldiers kill people in Muslim countries, and postal employees are also Federal employees, that postal workers are probably killing Muslims on their routes. Just because you connect a bunch of dots doesn't mean you've actually found a pattern.
krapp 13y ago
But surely those people are perfectly well aware that such a black market is deemed illegal and that they can still be arrested for selling, buying and using. He's not being made to look any more evil than anyone else accused of attempted murder and running a criminal syndicate.
- loceng 13y ago
  Facilitating the sale of drugs is quite different than if he's accused of trying to (successfully or unsuccessfully) kill 6 people - which is much more extreme, no?
  - krapp 13y ago
    Cartel bosses, gang members and drug dealers have been known to have their perceived enemies killed to defend their money, territory or evade capture. Let's not pretend that 'facilitating the sale of drugs' at that scale is an necessarily nonviolent business. And besides, what does the government have to gain that's worth the risk of damaging their case if its discovered they fabricated evidence?
    - loceng 13y ago
      RIght, so it's an easy assumption to accept - and no assumptions being made. And do you really think the government level / agency that is in charge of justice would have any level of 'clearance' towards the agency that would be fabricating evidence? The NSA has been lying to congress for years, as an easy example.
      - krapp 13y ago
        While I believe a conspiracy like that is possible, I don't believe it to be plausible for the simple fact that DPR isn't worth the risk. The government doesn't need to paint drug dealers or black market operators in a bad light, and unless they fabricated their entire case against him, they probably have ample evidence to put him behind bars even if these screenshots were to be thrown out (supporting evidence for the attempted hits don't rest on those after all, they'll have logs and testimony as well.) They've already broken Silk Road and everyone already knows they can attack the deep web, and that Tor and Bitcoin aren't perfect bulwarks against the State.

by loceng 13y ago

sliverstorm 13y ago

Right, but that's like arguing the government clearly controls the weather, because of how convenient it would be for them if they could. You're just saying, "Well I could see them setting him up" and hoping that counts as evidence.

loceng 13y ago
So, you're trying to twist my words into saying "this is what is happening and I am claiming it to be true" - however what I'm saying is that it's a reasonable possibility - I am not saying there is proof behind it or that it's a real occurrence.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  How do we know it is a reasonable possibility? We have zero evidence to suggest it is the case.
  - loceng 13y ago
    Probability is based in part on logic using past occurrences as references - and not the present moment or determining conviction.
    - krapp 13y ago
      what "past occurrences" of the government fabricating evidence in a federal trial lend weight to the probability of their doing so in this case? You've cited propaganda and the NSA lying to congress as as possible evidence, but I believe this to be specious, unless the premise is that the government merely lies about everything, and fabricates evidence just because it can. You might as well suggest that because soldiers kill people in Muslim countries, and postal employees are also Federal employees, that postal workers are probably killing Muslims on their routes. Just because you connect a bunch of dots doesn't mean you've actually found a pattern.

krapp 13y ago

But surely those people are perfectly well aware that such a black market is deemed illegal and that they can still be arrested for selling, buying and using. He's not being made to look any more evil than anyone else accused of attempted murder and running a criminal syndicate.

loceng 13y ago
Facilitating the sale of drugs is quite different than if he's accused of trying to (successfully or unsuccessfully) kill 6 people - which is much more extreme, no?
- krapp 13y ago
  Cartel bosses, gang members and drug dealers have been known to have their perceived enemies killed to defend their money, territory or evade capture. Let's not pretend that 'facilitating the sale of drugs' at that scale is an necessarily nonviolent business. And besides, what does the government have to gain that's worth the risk of damaging their case if its discovered they fabricated evidence?
  - loceng 13y ago
    RIght, so it's an easy assumption to accept - and no assumptions being made. And do you really think the government level / agency that is in charge of justice would have any level of 'clearance' towards the agency that would be fabricating evidence? The NSA has been lying to congress for years, as an easy example.
    - krapp 13y ago
      While I believe a conspiracy like that is possible, I don't believe it to be plausible for the simple fact that DPR isn't worth the risk. The government doesn't need to paint drug dealers or black market operators in a bad light, and unless they fabricated their entire case against him, they probably have ample evidence to put him behind bars even if these screenshots were to be thrown out (supporting evidence for the attempted hits don't rest on those after all, they'll have logs and testimony as well.) They've already broken Silk Road and everyone already knows they can attack the deep web, and that Tor and Bitcoin aren't perfect bulwarks against the State.