4 ms·

> Me? I have an unusual attitude in Sweden. I ask: What works best? Frankly, I don't know. The Swedish way sounds nicer, but... does it really work? How is it

> Me? I have an unusual attitude in Sweden. I ask: What works best? Frankly, I don't know. The Swedish way sounds nicer, but... does it really work? How is it nicer? Do you think it's ok for the State to decide what two consenting adults can do with their own bodies?

alkonaut 13y ago
Positive and negative freedoms. The right of a subset of the population (Non-consenting sex workers, i.e. traficking victims etc.) to NOT have to sell sex against their will, is stronger than the right for the larger group to be allowed to do so. Just like my right to walk the street without being shot outweighs anyone elses right to carry a gun there.
- patrickaljord 13y ago
  That doesn't make sense, I just said that people who consent into prostitution should be allowed to do so and you say they shouldn't be allowed to do so because people shouldn't be forced into prostitution? Forcing people into prostitution should be illegal, I agree with that. But if two people consent into something concerning their own bodies, the state shouldn't have a say in that. If you don't even own your own body, what do you own? What freedom's left? > Just like my right to walk the street without being shot outweighs anyone elses right to carry a gun there. I disagree with that too, people should be free to own guns, not just the government. Using guns against people for anything but self-defense should be and is illegal though. It's fascinating how much people can trust their government to the point of giving them the right of what they should do with their own bodies, sexuality and more. I'm from Europe though, so I'm used to that.
  - alkonaut 13y ago
    An ideal law would of course let consenting people do what they want, while people who do it for other reasons should not be allowed to. And of course there are already laws against traficking just like there are laws agains shooting people. The problem is that such a law is both difficult to draft and enforce. So assume we are left with a choice of two laws: completely legal or completely illegal. This law will thus have one of two drawbacks: It will allow forcing people to sell sex without consent or it will make it illegal for consenting adults to do so. There is no more or less freedoms here, it's just different freedoms for different groups.
    - patrickaljord 13y ago
      People being forced to sell sex without consent will happen regardless of whether prostitution is legal or not. Sex trafficking happens everyday here in France where prostitution is illegal. So banning prostitution does not protect forced people and it prohibits consenting people to engage freely in prostitution. It has everything to do with freedom. The freedom to do what you want with your body. Thinking prohibiting prostitution will make sex trafficking disappear is delusional and I'm surprised to read such thing on HN. What's next? The war on drug is working? So what should we do? Remove people freedom to engage in prostitution even though sex trafficking will still exist or respect people's freedom and keep prostitution illegal? Same thing with drugs really.
      - alkonaut 13y ago
        A law against buying sex (rather than selling) appears to have had exactly that effect in Sweden. That is, at least the visible prostitution has decreased overall. In fact it seems to have worked so well that a similar law is proposed in France. And you are surprised to hear this on HN why? Is this a libertarian haven of some kind?
        patrickaljord 13y ago
        > A law against buying sex (rather than selling) Seriously? You buy into this kind of rhetoric? A law against buying something is a law against selling it too. That's just common sense. The visible prostitution as you say, but it's just gone underground. Rape has also gone up. Even then, if it went away, this would mean it'd ruin perfectly fine and peaceful business between consenting adults... while granting the state the power to decide what you can or can't do with your body. How is that a victory. I wonder. > In fact it seems to have worked so well that a similar law is proposed in France. yeah, France is all over prohibition too and nany state. No surprise here. > And you are surprised to hear this on HN why? Is this a libertarian haven of some kind? As the article says, it's not a libertarian stance as in Germany green lefties support legal prostitution. It's a matter of freedom and not letting the state decide what you can do with your very own body. If you're fine with the state telling you what you can or can't do to your own body, good for you. But don't force it on others. That's just as bad as religious people forcing their opinion on others by law (prop 8, no Jews/atheists/women allowed in office etc).

alkonaut 13y ago

Positive and negative freedoms. The right of a subset of the population (Non-consenting sex workers, i.e. traficking victims etc.) to NOT have to sell sex against their will, is stronger than the right for the larger group to be allowed to do so. Just like my right to walk the street without being shot outweighs anyone elses right to carry a gun there.

patrickaljord 13y ago
That doesn't make sense, I just said that people who consent into prostitution should be allowed to do so and you say they shouldn't be allowed to do so because people shouldn't be forced into prostitution? Forcing people into prostitution should be illegal, I agree with that. But if two people consent into something concerning their own bodies, the state shouldn't have a say in that. If you don't even own your own body, what do you own? What freedom's left? > Just like my right to walk the street without being shot outweighs anyone elses right to carry a gun there. I disagree with that too, people should be free to own guns, not just the government. Using guns against people for anything but self-defense should be and is illegal though. It's fascinating how much people can trust their government to the point of giving them the right of what they should do with their own bodies, sexuality and more. I'm from Europe though, so I'm used to that.
- alkonaut 13y ago
  An ideal law would of course let consenting people do what they want, while people who do it for other reasons should not be allowed to. And of course there are already laws against traficking just like there are laws agains shooting people. The problem is that such a law is both difficult to draft and enforce. So assume we are left with a choice of two laws: completely legal or completely illegal. This law will thus have one of two drawbacks: It will allow forcing people to sell sex without consent or it will make it illegal for consenting adults to do so. There is no more or less freedoms here, it's just different freedoms for different groups.
  - patrickaljord 13y ago
    People being forced to sell sex without consent will happen regardless of whether prostitution is legal or not. Sex trafficking happens everyday here in France where prostitution is illegal. So banning prostitution does not protect forced people and it prohibits consenting people to engage freely in prostitution. It has everything to do with freedom. The freedom to do what you want with your body. Thinking prohibiting prostitution will make sex trafficking disappear is delusional and I'm surprised to read such thing on HN. What's next? The war on drug is working? So what should we do? Remove people freedom to engage in prostitution even though sex trafficking will still exist or respect people's freedom and keep prostitution illegal? Same thing with drugs really.
    - alkonaut 13y ago
      A law against buying sex (rather than selling) appears to have had exactly that effect in Sweden. That is, at least the visible prostitution has decreased overall. In fact it seems to have worked so well that a similar law is proposed in France. And you are surprised to hear this on HN why? Is this a libertarian haven of some kind?
      - patrickaljord 13y ago
        > A law against buying sex (rather than selling) Seriously? You buy into this kind of rhetoric? A law against buying something is a law against selling it too. That's just common sense. The visible prostitution as you say, but it's just gone underground. Rape has also gone up. Even then, if it went away, this would mean it'd ruin perfectly fine and peaceful business between consenting adults... while granting the state the power to decide what you can or can't do with your body. How is that a victory. I wonder. > In fact it seems to have worked so well that a similar law is proposed in France. yeah, France is all over prohibition too and nany state. No surprise here. > And you are surprised to hear this on HN why? Is this a libertarian haven of some kind? As the article says, it's not a libertarian stance as in Germany green lefties support legal prostitution. It's a matter of freedom and not letting the state decide what you can do with your very own body. If you're fine with the state telling you what you can or can't do to your own body, good for you. But don't force it on others. That's just as bad as religious people forcing their opinion on others by law (prop 8, no Jews/atheists/women allowed in office etc).