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I'm German and I feel this article fails to grasp the atmosphere around here. The country is certainly not one giant brothel. Growing up here, brothels have the

by Udo 13y ago

I'm German and I feel this article fails to grasp the atmosphere around here. The country is certainly not one giant brothel. Growing up here, brothels have the same aura as sex shops, sex kinos, and whatever other sex industry places exist. In fact, many times they're joints offering multiple services. Yes, they can be seedy (especially in "big" cities around the train station area), but if you look hard enough you can find them in pretty much every larger town. They're by the road side, or even as is the case in my home town, smack in the middle of the shopping district. It's not like there are prostitutes standing around everywhere, for the most part they are just large hotel-like buildings that look a bit like clubs. In fact, from outside presentation, it's easy in some cases to mistake a bordello for a girlie bar, a private nudist club, a massage parlor, a swinger club, or whatever. When I was working on our startup, we were selling some of our old displays once and a middle aged business woman came in to buy them. We got talking and she told us she was running a brothel. Being a business ourselves, we quickly exchanged stories and experiences that sounded very similar (we were a software startup that had nothing to do with sex). The gist of it was for me, that looking into this somewhat alien world, these brothels are just normal small businesses. I'm sure there are brutal mafia-owned exploitation joints in this country, but the average urban brothel seems to be more like a mom and pop shop. The article claims that only 44 sex workers took advantage of social benefits, but that simply cannot be the whole story. This brothel owner I talked with told me that while the girls register with other occupation names officially, every single one of them was getting a normal wage, with taxes and everything. From where I'm standing, the fact that it's not illegal helps a lot of people with no discernible downside. Are there appalling slave labor shops based on human trafficking? I'm sure they exist, but they are illegal. I'm also sure those do not make up the vast majority of brothels in Germany. As for the rest, it's difficult to make a convincing argument that the country would be a better place for anyone if they would be driven underground. Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway.

pantalaimon 13y ago
> Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway. Why would you think so? The number of older people is just growing.
- Udo 13y ago
  You might be right. But the way I meant it was only incidentally about age itself. I think my generation and below (btw I'm also middle aged now) are less likely to engage the services of a prostitute, but that's mostly based on my immediate social circle and I don't have the data to back this up. Personally, the concept always seemed very strange to me, and I can't imagine that'll change as I get older.
DanBC 13y ago
> From where I'm standing, the fact that it's not illegal helps a lot of people with no discernible downside. I'm generally if favour of legalising prostitution. People with free will exchanging money for sex is fine. And having legal prostitution should allow better regulation - children and trafficked workers get better protection; legal sex workers get better health care. But those things that make legal prostitution more acceptable make it more expensive, which is the gap filled by criminal gangs exploiting trafficked workers. > Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway. Everybody gets old. Online dating shows there are many lonely people. I'm gently surprised there's nothing exploiting the gap between "rent a friend" and "sex work" for "rent someone to give you fully clothed, non-sexual, hugging and conversation".
- Udo 13y ago
  > I'm gently surprised there's nothing exploiting the gap between "rent a friend" and "sex work" for "rent someone to give you fully clothed, non-sexual, hugging and conversation". True. I have always been surprised that there are no actual (for lack of a better word) escort services here: places where you rent someone to go out with, or to attend social functions with. If this existed, I must confess I'd have used it several times already. There are social events where showing up alone is simply not a good option.
  - pantalaimon 13y ago
    kaufmich.de?
    - Udo 13y ago
      Huh? I think you misunderstood my comment there.
alkonaut 13y ago
> it's easy in some cases to mistake a bordello for a [...], a private nudist club,[...], a swinger club, or whatever. And you mean in Germany seeing a private nudist club or a swinger club in the street wouldndn't be surprising, or immediately tag the area as seedy?
- Udo 13y ago
  It can tag an area as seedy, but not necessarily so. Like I said, they're mostly normal-looking clubs. There are many private clubs in Germany that exist somewhere on the edge between different concepts, and they're not necessarily seedy or easily distinguishable. Remember, this is the country of the swinger club or the BDSM show or even the socially very acceptable Burlesque/variety show.
  - alkonaut 13y ago
    Don't know what is the chicken or egg in this regard, but I think it's clear that with respect to sex (and the surrounding industry), Germany is culturally very different from Sweden which was the counterexample. Brothels are probably just the tip of the iceberg.
    - Udo 13y ago
      > Germany is culturally very different from Sweden For the most part I think you're right. On the one hand I think the idea of, say, a swinger club is somewhat adorable, but in practice it's sometimes hard not to laugh about German sex culture with all of its curious stereotypes. I went to a "normal" rave party once, and the highlight of the evening was a banquet table with a naked girl on it which you could eat fruit off of. Personally though I find the BDSM stuff hard to swallow, especially if young people are doing this it's just kind of sad.
      - pantalaimon 13y ago
        > Personally though I find the BDSM stuff hard to swallow, especially if young people are doing this it's just kind of sad. What is sad about young people enjoying BDSM?
wuschel 13y ago
Nice post, however, I would not agree to this statement: "Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway." Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men - which is likely not going to change in the next time. There is a strong demand for uncomplicated, quick, cheap sexual satisfaction within the male population, and prostitutes cater to this demand. The image of the 60 year old unemployed client is wrong. There was a nice article in the last FAS (Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung 17.11.2013, a leading German newspaper) that reported on a biased podium discussion of a well known stone age feminist. I found the article to be nice because it discussed the needs of prostitutes e.g. respect of the customer, hygienic business practices, safe environment, etc.
- Udo 13y ago
  Like I said, you are probably right that my perception in this regard is not representative of German society as a whole. However, I consider myself to be male, and I have to object to a blanket statement like > Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men It's obviously not tied to my nature nor the nature of most men in my social circle. Are we not real men, then? I get that the intent here was probably to express how prostitution is fueled by male desire, but I don't agree with the implication that this is how all men feel.
  - wuschel 13y ago
    You are right, I should have been more precise. What I meant to say is that prostitution is one way to satisfy the unfulfilled sex drive a man has. I was not talking about feelings, but about a - so to say - intrinsic biological potential to find a mate and copulate. A man will consider the offer of a prostitute on a simple sexual basis if he is attracted to her. It is a biological drive that each individual seeks to have satisfied. If this drive is not satisfied, the stimulus for attraction can be lower. Of course, there is also a strong emotional factor involved, ethical components, fears (e.g. STDs, being caught etc). But I was not referring to that. Please note that I was not trying to picture men as animals - on the contrary, I was just trying to show that male sexual behaviour has strong biological components. As does the sexual behaviour of women. I would like to know what factors are the most important in the rejection of a prostitute's offer, as I think that prostitution it is part of a deep sociological process. It would not surprise me if the hygienic component would be the strongest one.

by Udo 13y ago

pantalaimon 13y ago

> Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway. Why would you think so? The number of older people is just growing.

Udo 13y ago
You might be right. But the way I meant it was only incidentally about age itself. I think my generation and below (btw I'm also middle aged now) are less likely to engage the services of a prostitute, but that's mostly based on my immediate social circle and I don't have the data to back this up. Personally, the concept always seemed very strange to me, and I can't imagine that'll change as I get older.

DanBC 13y ago

> From where I'm standing, the fact that it's not illegal helps a lot of people with no discernible downside. I'm generally if favour of legalising prostitution. People with free will exchanging money for sex is fine. And having legal prostitution should allow better regulation - children and trafficked workers get better protection; legal sex workers get better health care. But those things that make legal prostitution more acceptable make it more expensive, which is the gap filled by criminal gangs exploiting trafficked workers. > Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway. Everybody gets old. Online dating shows there are many lonely people. I'm gently surprised there's nothing exploiting the gap between "rent a friend" and "sex work" for "rent someone to give you fully clothed, non-sexual, hugging and conversation".

Udo 13y ago
> I'm gently surprised there's nothing exploiting the gap between "rent a friend" and "sex work" for "rent someone to give you fully clothed, non-sexual, hugging and conversation". True. I have always been surprised that there are no actual (for lack of a better word) escort services here: places where you rent someone to go out with, or to attend social functions with. If this existed, I must confess I'd have used it several times already. There are social events where showing up alone is simply not a good option.
- pantalaimon 13y ago
  kaufmich.de?
  - Udo 13y ago
    Huh? I think you misunderstood my comment there.

alkonaut 13y ago

> it's easy in some cases to mistake a bordello for a [...], a private nudist club,[...], a swinger club, or whatever. And you mean in Germany seeing a private nudist club or a swinger club in the street wouldndn't be surprising, or immediately tag the area as seedy?

Udo 13y ago
It can tag an area as seedy, but not necessarily so. Like I said, they're mostly normal-looking clubs. There are many private clubs in Germany that exist somewhere on the edge between different concepts, and they're not necessarily seedy or easily distinguishable. Remember, this is the country of the swinger club or the BDSM show or even the socially very acceptable Burlesque/variety show.
- alkonaut 13y ago
  Don't know what is the chicken or egg in this regard, but I think it's clear that with respect to sex (and the surrounding industry), Germany is culturally very different from Sweden which was the counterexample. Brothels are probably just the tip of the iceberg.
  - Udo 13y ago
    > Germany is culturally very different from Sweden For the most part I think you're right. On the one hand I think the idea of, say, a swinger club is somewhat adorable, but in practice it's sometimes hard not to laugh about German sex culture with all of its curious stereotypes. I went to a "normal" rave party once, and the highlight of the evening was a banquet table with a naked girl on it which you could eat fruit off of. Personally though I find the BDSM stuff hard to swallow, especially if young people are doing this it's just kind of sad.
    - pantalaimon 13y ago
      > Personally though I find the BDSM stuff hard to swallow, especially if young people are doing this it's just kind of sad. What is sad about young people enjoying BDSM?

wuschel 13y ago

Nice post, however, I would not agree to this statement: "Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway." Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men - which is likely not going to change in the next time. There is a strong demand for uncomplicated, quick, cheap sexual satisfaction within the male population, and prostitutes cater to this demand. The image of the 60 year old unemployed client is wrong. There was a nice article in the last FAS (Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung 17.11.2013, a leading German newspaper) that reported on a biased podium discussion of a well known stone age feminist. I found the article to be nice because it discussed the needs of prostitutes e.g. respect of the customer, hygienic business practices, safe environment, etc.

Udo 13y ago
Like I said, you are probably right that my perception in this regard is not representative of German society as a whole. However, I consider myself to be male, and I have to object to a blanket statement like > Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men It's obviously not tied to my nature nor the nature of most men in my social circle. Are we not real men, then? I get that the intent here was probably to express how prostitution is fueled by male desire, but I don't agree with the implication that this is how all men feel.
- wuschel 13y ago
  You are right, I should have been more precise. What I meant to say is that prostitution is one way to satisfy the unfulfilled sex drive a man has. I was not talking about feelings, but about a - so to say - intrinsic biological potential to find a mate and copulate. A man will consider the offer of a prostitute on a simple sexual basis if he is attracted to her. It is a biological drive that each individual seeks to have satisfied. If this drive is not satisfied, the stimulus for attraction can be lower. Of course, there is also a strong emotional factor involved, ethical components, fears (e.g. STDs, being caught etc). But I was not referring to that. Please note that I was not trying to picture men as animals - on the contrary, I was just trying to show that male sexual behaviour has strong biological components. As does the sexual behaviour of women. I would like to know what factors are the most important in the rejection of a prostitute's offer, as I think that prostitution it is part of a deep sociological process. It would not surprise me if the hygienic component would be the strongest one.