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This part is a little weird to me: "Let’s be extremely generous and say that, on average, 3,000 Americans die every year from terror attacks [...] The governm

This part is a little weird to me: "Let’s be extremely generous and say that, on average, 3,000 Americans die every year from terror attacks [...] The government has yet to prove one credible example of a legitimate terror plot that was prevented thanks to mass surveillance. If they want to insist that spying makes us safer, this would be good information to know." Is that not evidence that to some degree, the surveillance works to keep terrorism down? One of the biggest deterrents to committing a crime is the certainty of getting caught. I realize that people have blogged about how to circumvent a lot of the security making it seem pointless, but I assume even the appearance of security would make it seem like less of an appealing idea to a would-be terrorist. EDIT: I should say "interesting" rather than "weird." This post is assuming the psychology of a terrorist is similar to a white collar or petty criminal, which obviously isn't always the case. But maybe it's not too much of a stretch to say it doesn't stop senseless violence or serial killers from committing similar acts of terror.

epoxyhockey 13y ago
One of the biggest deterrents to committing a crime is the certainty of getting caught. Maybe for you, personally, but not for a genuine terrorist. Saying that domestic spying deters someone with a deep hatred of a country from committing an act of terrorism is like saying that gun laws reduce gang violence. There is just no way to deter the will of sufficiently motivated person or group of people.
- papa_bear 13y ago
  You're probably right - my post was assuming that the psychology of a committing a terror act was the same as a petty crime or assault. Maybe not the best assumption to make.
Lagged2Death 13y ago
Is that not evidence that to some degree, the surveillance works to keep terrorism down? Look, all this talk about surveillance is a red herring. Since 9/11, I've been diligently praying to Zoltar the Space God every day, begging him to put a stop to Islamic terrorism on American soil. And as you point out, it's been working great. The lack of attacks is evidence that to some degree, Zoltar is powerful and benevolent.
- tedunangst 13y ago
  But how do you know the terrorists aren't praying to Zoltar "Oh Mighty Space God Zoltar, please allow Lagged2Death to become complacent in his security"? :)
gritzko 13y ago
Do you know why crocodiles have red eyes? Well, that's to hide in tomato plants! Have you ever seen a crocodile in a tomato plant? Never? Yeah... Because they are impossible to spot.
smsm42 13y ago
>> One of the biggest deterrents to committing a crime is the certainty of getting caught. No, for a suicidal terrorist it is not. He'd be dead anyway, who you're going to catch? Of course, there's a risk of getting caught before, but that is known and they are sure they can avoid it, it doesn't deter them. >> but I assume even the appearance of security would make it seem like less of an appealing idea to a would-be terrorist. To a very stupid terrorist that can't understand it is only an appearance - maybe. However, you can deter very stupid terrorists much cheaper and without destroying civil liberties. And those who can add two and two, you'd do nothing by playing theater with them except wasting resources that actually could have gone to catch them. Every minute NSA analyst spends on spying on innocent people he doesn't spend watching terrorists. And even in the NSA the resources are finite.
- XorNot 13y ago
  >> No, for a suicidal terrorist it is not. He'd be dead anyway, who you're going to catch? Of course, there's a risk of getting caught before, but that is known and they are sure they can avoid it, it doesn't deter them. It's almost like a covert intelligence program would be a really good way to know to when to swoop in such as to stop a person when they have enough evidence on them to arrest, but before they carry out an attack.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    Provided this program targets actual terrorists and not repurposed for spying on foreign leaders, sellers of chemicals not approved by government and attractive females that interest particular NSA analysts.

epoxyhockey 13y ago

One of the biggest deterrents to committing a crime is the certainty of getting caught. Maybe for you, personally, but not for a genuine terrorist. Saying that domestic spying deters someone with a deep hatred of a country from committing an act of terrorism is like saying that gun laws reduce gang violence. There is just no way to deter the will of sufficiently motivated person or group of people.

papa_bear 13y ago
You're probably right - my post was assuming that the psychology of a committing a terror act was the same as a petty crime or assault. Maybe not the best assumption to make.

Lagged2Death 13y ago

Is that not evidence that to some degree, the surveillance works to keep terrorism down? Look, all this talk about surveillance is a red herring. Since 9/11, I've been diligently praying to Zoltar the Space God every day, begging him to put a stop to Islamic terrorism on American soil. And as you point out, it's been working great. The lack of attacks is evidence that to some degree, Zoltar is powerful and benevolent.

tedunangst 13y ago
But how do you know the terrorists aren't praying to Zoltar "Oh Mighty Space God Zoltar, please allow Lagged2Death to become complacent in his security"? :)

gritzko 13y ago

Do you know why crocodiles have red eyes? Well, that's to hide in tomato plants! Have you ever seen a crocodile in a tomato plant? Never? Yeah... Because they are impossible to spot.

smsm42 13y ago

>> One of the biggest deterrents to committing a crime is the certainty of getting caught. No, for a suicidal terrorist it is not. He'd be dead anyway, who you're going to catch? Of course, there's a risk of getting caught before, but that is known and they are sure they can avoid it, it doesn't deter them. >> but I assume even the appearance of security would make it seem like less of an appealing idea to a would-be terrorist. To a very stupid terrorist that can't understand it is only an appearance - maybe. However, you can deter very stupid terrorists much cheaper and without destroying civil liberties. And those who can add two and two, you'd do nothing by playing theater with them except wasting resources that actually could have gone to catch them. Every minute NSA analyst spends on spying on innocent people he doesn't spend watching terrorists. And even in the NSA the resources are finite.

XorNot 13y ago
>> No, for a suicidal terrorist it is not. He'd be dead anyway, who you're going to catch? Of course, there's a risk of getting caught before, but that is known and they are sure they can avoid it, it doesn't deter them. It's almost like a covert intelligence program would be a really good way to know to when to swoop in such as to stop a person when they have enough evidence on them to arrest, but before they carry out an attack.
- smsm42 13y ago
  Provided this program targets actual terrorists and not repurposed for spying on foreign leaders, sellers of chemicals not approved by government and attractive females that interest particular NSA analysts.