5 ms·

>> Private property itself can't exist without the use of force and the state. If you abolish the state, you abolish private property. Really now? If the State

>> Private property itself can't exist without the use of force and the state. If you abolish the state, you abolish private property. Really now? If the State ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think you and everyone you know would go on a killing spree, because no one would have "the right to live" anymore? Without the State, would you and your friends go forcefully take everyone else's (non-)property because property rights would cease to exist? Or would everyone perhaps willingly part with all their belongings because they believed their property rights had vanished with the State? Would you and your friends go rape all the women you could get your hands on, purely because without the State, people would no longer have the right to control their own bodies? .. See what I'm getting at here? Perhaps you'd like to reconsider who's got it completely backwards?

jahaja 13y ago
You're confusing and wildy mixing basic human morality with politically/economically motivated laws.
- anoncowherd 13y ago
  And he wasn't? :p To be more accurate, I'm simply pointing out that we all have the exact same rights regardless of what a government does/says, or whether one even exists at all. Our rights manifest themselves in the way people naturally behave.
  - jahaja 13y ago
    Is your point that private-property is in line with how people naturally behave? I'm not really sure what is meant by rights. It's surely so subjective that it loses it's purpose.
    - anoncowherd 13y ago
      There's no need for a law that says "don't take someone else's stuff" - it's common sense, and everyone intuitively understands that it's forbidden. If you want an "academic" investigation into this idea, check out "natural rights": http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/four.asp http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/four.asp
      - jahaja 13y ago
        That holds true for possessions, but not private-property. I think it's necessary to recognize the difference between private-property (e.g land, industry etc) and possesions (e.g one's house, car etc.). I'm familiar with the concept of natural rights and it's claim to be some kind of objective rights, but I think it's fairly obvious that such a fought over topic is not even close to being objective.
        anoncowherd 13y ago
        >> I think it's necessary to recognize the difference between private-property (e.g land, industry etc) and possesions (e.g one's house, car etc.). There are several sensible ways to define "property". One is that it's a representation of value that you want exclusive control over. This value can be in the form of an apple in your hand, or a factory under your control, even if it's a building. The bottom line is, people produce value in order to benefit from it, and the "right" to control that value is required - otherwise people wouldn't produce anything. But there's no need for a government here. As I said, everyone knows you can't just take someone else's stuff. >> I'm familiar with the concept of natural rights and it's claim to be some kind of objective rights, but I think it's fairly obvious that such a fought over topic is not even close to being objective Here's something objective: Treat others as you'd like them to treat you. This includes not taking control of their property, no matter what form it's in. Rights are just an idea, and "natural rights" are a version of it that aligns perfectly with The Golden Rule, and people's intuitive "common sense morality". Typically, your conscience tells you when you're doing something you shouldn't do. Oh, and as for "objective", do you think a group of sociopaths ruling over everyone else is objective?
        jahaja 13y ago
        Why can't you come to terms with the obvious difference between those kinds of property? For some reasons it's basically impossible to get a straight answer from a property advocate on this. It's not the same in any moral sense. That you seem to find it rational for one person to own vast amounts of land is what I would see as a pathological frame of mind. It's just aint just. I can't see how it's in any way morally more natural to uphold that persons property rights rather than abolishing such a concept and letting those who use the land own what they use. "Treat others as you'd like them to treat you" for me is for example to not claim private-property rights of things that can be used to exploit others. You can't do that with your car, thus a possession. But in the case of land ownership you obviously can, thus property.
  - ameister14 13y ago
    Technically, we give up some of our rights to the state; the right to enter into a state of war, for example. There are notable exceptions to this but it's really dependent on community norms in those cases.
    - anoncowherd 13y ago
      >> Technically, we give up some of our rights to the state; the right to enter into a state of war, for example No one ever asked me, and no one ever asked you either. Is it reasonable to think you've agreed to "give up" some of your rights when no one ever asked you? What about taxes? Can you be considered to have consented to taxation when no one ever asked you, and when you're taxed by force anyway - it's as if no one wanted to be taxed! Not only that, but can you give up your rights? Can you give up your right to own property? -How would that work? Would you solemnly swear never to have any belongings anymore? Never to hold anything in your possession? Never to oppose anyone taking something from you?
      - ameister14 13y ago
        Yes, it is totally reasonable to have given up your rights when no-one ever asked you. But maybe you made it explicit anyway; have you ever said the pledge of allegiance? No, you cannot give up your right to property, because you own your person.
        anoncowherd 13y ago
        >> Yes, it is totally reasonable to have given up your rights when no-one ever asked you. Well, I guess you'll start sending say, 15% of all your income my way then? I never asked you, you never consented, but this "contract" is obviously binding anyway! That's how this stuff works, right? .. or do I need to have some kind of badge, wig, or uniform to make this "agreement" binding? Naturally, I'll show up at your door and take my "fair share" by force, if necessary. >> No, you cannot give up your right to property, because you own your person. You're certainly on to something there!
  - leot 13y ago
    "... the way people naturally behave." How is it that people "naturally" behave, exactly? Keep in mind that the way we behave in civilized society is a product of having been raised in civilized society. We have internalized social norms that have been codified into laws, and behave accordingly. If you look at history, or at any place where the consequences of behavior are removed (e.g. the behavior of people to whom laws don't typically apply), you will find that for the most part, people often behave extremely poorly to each other. Indeed, you'll find that game theory and selfishness best predicts how people treat each other. Law of the jungle, and all that.
hackinthebochs 13y ago
Of course not many people will go on a rampage. But the right to life is an entirely different beast than the right to property. It seems obvious to me that private property (the "right" to sole use of property) exists merely by decree of laws and without it, it simply doesn't exist. In the natural state one can only own what they can successfully defend. The concept of private property outsources that defense to the state and thus one ends up capable of accumulating far more property than one could defend in the natural state. >Without the State, would you and your friends go forcefully take everyone else's (non-)property because property rights would cease to exist No, but in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property.
- anoncowherd 13y ago
  >> But the right to life is an entirely different beast than the right to property. It seems obvious to me that private property (the "right" to sole use of property) exists merely by decree of laws and without it, it simply doesn't exist Do you need a law to tell you you're allowed to defend yourself if someone attacks you? .. Do you not have that "right" by virtue of being a human being? Are you only allowed to defend your property if there's a government that says you have property rights? >> in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property Presumably, you'd have voluntarily signed a contract with the bank, and voluntary assumed the risks involved in it, yes? If your contract with the bank says they get your home if you can't pay back your loan, then it's no longer your property after the clause has been triggered. If you did forcefully defend "your claim to said property" even when it's no longer your property, that would be a job for some kind of "dispute resolution organization".
  - hackinthebochs 13y ago
    The talk of 'rights' are muddying the issue. A 'right' necessarily entails responsibilities onto other entities. These responsibilities must be agreed upon beforehand for a 'right' to be said to exist. I know, it is common for discussions of natural rights as in collective responsibility that exists outside of any agreed upon framework. But careful examination of such a claim reveals it to be impotent. I have no reason to acknowledge your right to the sole use of 1M acres of land unless there was some mutually agreed upon framework beforehand. Once we reach the level of mutual agreement (and some enforcement clause) we have just invented government. The only 'natural right' I agree with is the right to life and non-interference. Everything else requires an agreed upon framework and thus are purely by decree.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> If the State ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think you and everyone you know would go on a killing spree, because no one would have "the right to live" anymore? You not having a right to something doesn't mean I don't have better uses for my time and effort than taking it from you.
- anoncowherd 13y ago
  Government not existing wouldn't mean you don't have rights.

jahaja 13y ago

You're confusing and wildy mixing basic human morality with politically/economically motivated laws.

anoncowherd 13y ago
And he wasn't? :p To be more accurate, I'm simply pointing out that we all have the exact same rights regardless of what a government does/says, or whether one even exists at all. Our rights manifest themselves in the way people naturally behave.
- jahaja 13y ago
  Is your point that private-property is in line with how people naturally behave? I'm not really sure what is meant by rights. It's surely so subjective that it loses it's purpose.
  - anoncowherd 13y ago
    There's no need for a law that says "don't take someone else's stuff" - it's common sense, and everyone intuitively understands that it's forbidden. If you want an "academic" investigation into this idea, check out "natural rights": http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/four.asp http://mises.org/rothbard/ethics/four.asp
    - jahaja 13y ago
      That holds true for possessions, but not private-property. I think it's necessary to recognize the difference between private-property (e.g land, industry etc) and possesions (e.g one's house, car etc.). I'm familiar with the concept of natural rights and it's claim to be some kind of objective rights, but I think it's fairly obvious that such a fought over topic is not even close to being objective.
      - anoncowherd 13y ago
        >> I think it's necessary to recognize the difference between private-property (e.g land, industry etc) and possesions (e.g one's house, car etc.). There are several sensible ways to define "property". One is that it's a representation of value that you want exclusive control over. This value can be in the form of an apple in your hand, or a factory under your control, even if it's a building. The bottom line is, people produce value in order to benefit from it, and the "right" to control that value is required - otherwise people wouldn't produce anything. But there's no need for a government here. As I said, everyone knows you can't just take someone else's stuff. >> I'm familiar with the concept of natural rights and it's claim to be some kind of objective rights, but I think it's fairly obvious that such a fought over topic is not even close to being objective Here's something objective: Treat others as you'd like them to treat you. This includes not taking control of their property, no matter what form it's in. Rights are just an idea, and "natural rights" are a version of it that aligns perfectly with The Golden Rule, and people's intuitive "common sense morality". Typically, your conscience tells you when you're doing something you shouldn't do. Oh, and as for "objective", do you think a group of sociopaths ruling over everyone else is objective?
        jahaja 13y ago
        Why can't you come to terms with the obvious difference between those kinds of property? For some reasons it's basically impossible to get a straight answer from a property advocate on this. It's not the same in any moral sense. That you seem to find it rational for one person to own vast amounts of land is what I would see as a pathological frame of mind. It's just aint just. I can't see how it's in any way morally more natural to uphold that persons property rights rather than abolishing such a concept and letting those who use the land own what they use. "Treat others as you'd like them to treat you" for me is for example to not claim private-property rights of things that can be used to exploit others. You can't do that with your car, thus a possession. But in the case of land ownership you obviously can, thus property.
- ameister14 13y ago
  Technically, we give up some of our rights to the state; the right to enter into a state of war, for example. There are notable exceptions to this but it's really dependent on community norms in those cases.
  - anoncowherd 13y ago
    >> Technically, we give up some of our rights to the state; the right to enter into a state of war, for example No one ever asked me, and no one ever asked you either. Is it reasonable to think you've agreed to "give up" some of your rights when no one ever asked you? What about taxes? Can you be considered to have consented to taxation when no one ever asked you, and when you're taxed by force anyway - it's as if no one wanted to be taxed! Not only that, but can you give up your rights? Can you give up your right to own property? -How would that work? Would you solemnly swear never to have any belongings anymore? Never to hold anything in your possession? Never to oppose anyone taking something from you?
    - ameister14 13y ago
      Yes, it is totally reasonable to have given up your rights when no-one ever asked you. But maybe you made it explicit anyway; have you ever said the pledge of allegiance? No, you cannot give up your right to property, because you own your person.
      - anoncowherd 13y ago
        >> Yes, it is totally reasonable to have given up your rights when no-one ever asked you. Well, I guess you'll start sending say, 15% of all your income my way then? I never asked you, you never consented, but this "contract" is obviously binding anyway! That's how this stuff works, right? .. or do I need to have some kind of badge, wig, or uniform to make this "agreement" binding? Naturally, I'll show up at your door and take my "fair share" by force, if necessary. >> No, you cannot give up your right to property, because you own your person. You're certainly on to something there!
- leot 13y ago
  "... the way people naturally behave." How is it that people "naturally" behave, exactly? Keep in mind that the way we behave in civilized society is a product of having been raised in civilized society. We have internalized social norms that have been codified into laws, and behave accordingly. If you look at history, or at any place where the consequences of behavior are removed (e.g. the behavior of people to whom laws don't typically apply), you will find that for the most part, people often behave extremely poorly to each other. Indeed, you'll find that game theory and selfishness best predicts how people treat each other. Law of the jungle, and all that.

hackinthebochs 13y ago

Of course not many people will go on a rampage. But the right to life is an entirely different beast than the right to property. It seems obvious to me that private property (the "right" to sole use of property) exists merely by decree of laws and without it, it simply doesn't exist. In the natural state one can only own what they can successfully defend. The concept of private property outsources that defense to the state and thus one ends up capable of accumulating far more property than one could defend in the natural state. >Without the State, would you and your friends go forcefully take everyone else's (non-)property because property rights would cease to exist No, but in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property.

anoncowherd 13y ago
>> But the right to life is an entirely different beast than the right to property. It seems obvious to me that private property (the "right" to sole use of property) exists merely by decree of laws and without it, it simply doesn't exist Do you need a law to tell you you're allowed to defend yourself if someone attacks you? .. Do you not have that "right" by virtue of being a human being? Are you only allowed to defend your property if there's a government that says you have property rights? >> in a scenario where a bank was attempting to evict me from my home and I had nowhere else to go, I would defend my claim to said property Presumably, you'd have voluntarily signed a contract with the bank, and voluntary assumed the risks involved in it, yes? If your contract with the bank says they get your home if you can't pay back your loan, then it's no longer your property after the clause has been triggered. If you did forcefully defend "your claim to said property" even when it's no longer your property, that would be a job for some kind of "dispute resolution organization".
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  The talk of 'rights' are muddying the issue. A 'right' necessarily entails responsibilities onto other entities. These responsibilities must be agreed upon beforehand for a 'right' to be said to exist. I know, it is common for discussions of natural rights as in collective responsibility that exists outside of any agreed upon framework. But careful examination of such a claim reveals it to be impotent. I have no reason to acknowledge your right to the sole use of 1M acres of land unless there was some mutually agreed upon framework beforehand. Once we reach the level of mutual agreement (and some enforcement clause) we have just invented government. The only 'natural right' I agree with is the right to life and non-interference. Everything else requires an agreed upon framework and thus are purely by decree.

dragonwriter 13y ago

> If the State ceased to exist tomorrow, do you think you and everyone you know would go on a killing spree, because no one would have "the right to live" anymore? You not having a right to something doesn't mean I don't have better uses for my time and effort than taking it from you.

anoncowherd 13y ago
Government not existing wouldn't mean you don't have rights.