6 ms·

I'm sure black people just aren't genetically apt for STEM either? Just because there's evidence for a correlation between gender and math scores doesn't mean

by cthom06 13y ago

I'm sure black people just aren't genetically apt for STEM either? Just because there's evidence for a correlation between gender and math scores doesn't mean there's a genetic reason for the disparity.

discolemonade 13y ago
The male advantage in mathematical and spatial orientation has been replicated in many different countries. So that pretty m uch rules out the cultural explanation.
- cthom06 13y ago
  Except that many different countries have a similar cultural attitude towards females. And again, taking a correlation between gender and math scores and extrapolating a genetic predisposition of a gender to fail in an entire class of industries is a stretch to say the least.
  - discolemonade 13y ago
    But then you have to go back to the original question: what is it about maleness and femaleness that makes it possible that in so many societies around the world, the same patterns exist? You can't have culture without brains to create it. And the brains of males and females in different cultures seem to be producing similar patterns.
    - Spooky23 13y ago
      Women have babies. Doing that has a profound impact. Think of that fact as a marketing funnel. Some number of women will make a prioritization decisions. Some will choose to focus 100% on child rearing. Others will focus on career. Other will balance both. Of the women who focus on career, some are in work environments that are family-friendly and will thrive. Some strive. Others are in environments where not being able to do hackathons or do conference calls at 9PM will close doors to career advancement. Unless you're a well-researched person who can cite real research, genetic arguments are just anecdotes or vague facts interpreted through a journalists' lens. We should focus research in this area on the anti-patterns -- house husbands. What happens to men in their careers when they take a few years away from the workforce? My guess is a story similar to what we see with women.
nawitus 13y ago
And just because a correlation is politically incorrect doesn't mean it's not caused by causation.
rguzman 13y ago
If I understand correctly, the idea here is that IQ is measurable (even if the measurement is noisy) and real (has predictive power, doesn't change). This is accomplished by studies that look to test individuals at different points in life. Secondly, IQ is mostly genetic. This is evidenced mostly by twin studies. Thirdly, math tests are okay IQ tests. Note that I'm not saying that things are one way or another, or that the reason there are so few women in tech is genetic. Just explaining how the ideas go together. It COULD be that way.
- shriya 13y ago
  But IQ is not that important when we're talking about being successful, making money, or building a good tech tool. Otherwise people with genius IQs would be the only ones ruling our society...but that's definitely not the case.
  - theorique 13y ago
    Some IQ advantage tends to help in these situations, but more isn't always better. In other words, you're likely to do better if you're a little better than average (e.g. 1 SD or 115). On the other hand, if you're one of those bizarro 180 IQ outliers who can't connect socially and emotionally (to say nothing of intellectually) with average people, you aren't likely to be able to be successful in a way that incorporates and leverages the contributions of other people.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
I'm confused as to why you are bringing up genetics. The article didn't. Is this just a straw man you wish to knock down?
- cthom06 13y ago
  Perhaps I should've said biologically, as the article did. The point is that when you say one class of people (females) isn't represented in an industry because "they just aren't born that way," what differentiates it from any other class of people (such as African Americans).
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    Nothing. There could be genetic differences between people of African descent and others and these might affect intelligence. In fact, we know there are genetic differences, we just don't know that they affect intelligence.

by cthom06 13y ago

discolemonade 13y ago

The male advantage in mathematical and spatial orientation has been replicated in many different countries. So that pretty m uch rules out the cultural explanation.

cthom06 13y ago
Except that many different countries have a similar cultural attitude towards females. And again, taking a correlation between gender and math scores and extrapolating a genetic predisposition of a gender to fail in an entire class of industries is a stretch to say the least.
- discolemonade 13y ago
  But then you have to go back to the original question: what is it about maleness and femaleness that makes it possible that in so many societies around the world, the same patterns exist? You can't have culture without brains to create it. And the brains of males and females in different cultures seem to be producing similar patterns.
  - Spooky23 13y ago
    Women have babies. Doing that has a profound impact. Think of that fact as a marketing funnel. Some number of women will make a prioritization decisions. Some will choose to focus 100% on child rearing. Others will focus on career. Other will balance both. Of the women who focus on career, some are in work environments that are family-friendly and will thrive. Some strive. Others are in environments where not being able to do hackathons or do conference calls at 9PM will close doors to career advancement. Unless you're a well-researched person who can cite real research, genetic arguments are just anecdotes or vague facts interpreted through a journalists' lens. We should focus research in this area on the anti-patterns -- house husbands. What happens to men in their careers when they take a few years away from the workforce? My guess is a story similar to what we see with women.

nawitus 13y ago

And just because a correlation is politically incorrect doesn't mean it's not caused by causation.

rguzman 13y ago

If I understand correctly, the idea here is that IQ is measurable (even if the measurement is noisy) and real (has predictive power, doesn't change). This is accomplished by studies that look to test individuals at different points in life. Secondly, IQ is mostly genetic. This is evidenced mostly by twin studies. Thirdly, math tests are okay IQ tests. Note that I'm not saying that things are one way or another, or that the reason there are so few women in tech is genetic. Just explaining how the ideas go together. It COULD be that way.

shriya 13y ago
But IQ is not that important when we're talking about being successful, making money, or building a good tech tool. Otherwise people with genius IQs would be the only ones ruling our society...but that's definitely not the case.
- theorique 13y ago
  Some IQ advantage tends to help in these situations, but more isn't always better. In other words, you're likely to do better if you're a little better than average (e.g. 1 SD or 115). On the other hand, if you're one of those bizarro 180 IQ outliers who can't connect socially and emotionally (to say nothing of intellectually) with average people, you aren't likely to be able to be successful in a way that incorporates and leverages the contributions of other people.

yummyfajitas 13y ago

I'm confused as to why you are bringing up genetics. The article didn't. Is this just a straw man you wish to knock down?

cthom06 13y ago
Perhaps I should've said biologically, as the article did. The point is that when you say one class of people (females) isn't represented in an industry because "they just aren't born that way," what differentiates it from any other class of people (such as African Americans).
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Nothing. There could be genetic differences between people of African descent and others and these might affect intelligence. In fact, we know there are genetic differences, we just don't know that they affect intelligence.