4 ms·

I'm not sure what overall point I'm making but "evidence that bulk meta data is useful in catching terrorists" is a pretty high bar. There is very little terro

by netcan 13y ago

I'm not sure what overall point I'm making but "evidence that bulk meta data is useful in catching terrorists" is a pretty high bar. There is very little terrorism in the US, compared to other violent crimes like murder or rape. It's a little harder to quantify because most deaths & injuries were due to one event. Potential mega events like nuclear terrorism or another 9/11 scale event are possible are even more black swanish. But in an average year there is virtually none. Terrorism & counter-terrorism are mostly emotional, the emotional impact of a terrorist attack carries more weight. What would effective even look like? Reducing the number of yearly incidences from 6 to 4? Making arrests?

ma2rten 13y ago
You don't have to take it 100% literally. If the NSA had made a convincing case that metadata collection actually prevents terrorism, the senators would probably not have made this statement, even if it's technically still true that there is no evidence.
belorn 13y ago
> What would effective even look like? Effective Anti-terrorism laws looks identical to effective anti-murder laws, which anti-mass murder legislation is part of. That might still sound too abstract, so let me list a few more concrete methods: Good psychological health care. Healthy people do not walk into a day care and shoot children. Justice system that focus on protecting society and rehabilitation, rather than jails focused on punishment. See Norway in healthy reaction to insane mass murderers. A foreign policy that do not maintain wars indefinitely. Creating peace is never going to be easy when loaded missiles (drones) keeps flying above peoples head everyday. Torture is also a big no-no. Well funded and staffed police investigators. This is how organized crime (which all terrorist organizations are) gets taken down. Taking down al-Qaeda is not much different from taking down a drug cartel. If anything, the drug cartel is more dangerous, got more guns, got more people, and is more secret.
jdgiese 13y ago
Even if meta data could be useful for stopping murders and rape, it is really worth providing the police and other law enforcement agencies this kind of power over the populace to make this end? Especially, when the number of cases it could stop would likely be small? I don't know about you, but outside of major destructive threats like terrorism, I don't really want the NSA involved.

by netcan 13y ago

ma2rten 13y ago

You don't have to take it 100% literally. If the NSA had made a convincing case that metadata collection actually prevents terrorism, the senators would probably not have made this statement, even if it's technically still true that there is no evidence.

belorn 13y ago

> What would effective even look like? Effective Anti-terrorism laws looks identical to effective anti-murder laws, which anti-mass murder legislation is part of. That might still sound too abstract, so let me list a few more concrete methods: Good psychological health care. Healthy people do not walk into a day care and shoot children. Justice system that focus on protecting society and rehabilitation, rather than jails focused on punishment. See Norway in healthy reaction to insane mass murderers. A foreign policy that do not maintain wars indefinitely. Creating peace is never going to be easy when loaded missiles (drones) keeps flying above peoples head everyday. Torture is also a big no-no. Well funded and staffed police investigators. This is how organized crime (which all terrorist organizations are) gets taken down. Taking down al-Qaeda is not much different from taking down a drug cartel. If anything, the drug cartel is more dangerous, got more guns, got more people, and is more secret.

jdgiese 13y ago

Even if meta data could be useful for stopping murders and rape, it is really worth providing the police and other law enforcement agencies this kind of power over the populace to make this end? Especially, when the number of cases it could stop would likely be small? I don't know about you, but outside of major destructive threats like terrorism, I don't really want the NSA involved.