5 ms·

"Why should I bother trying to stay out if nothing I can do can keep me out?" Well, for starters, living by the conditions of the parole... I'm not trying to

"Why should I bother trying to stay out if nothing I can do can keep me out?" Well, for starters, living by the conditions of the parole... I'm not trying to be too snarky about it, but given the choice of "fed up with a crowded house" and the chance of going back to prison for a year, the choice seems evident. The question is whether the person really cares. Stuck in a crowded apartment, maybe it was a calculated risk: I can either get away with it, or I'll go back to the big house. In the end, maybe he doesn't feel that he lost that much.

angersock 13y ago
"living by the conditions of the parole" That's well and good, but there are numerous shit luck things that can happen that might result in a technical parole violation, right?
- thenerdfiles 13y ago
  "My neighbor asked me to walk their dog..."
girvo 13y ago
If only it was that simple. Life isn't, unfortunately, but parole expects it to be.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Could you explain the relevant complexity, particularly as it applies to this example? "It isn't that simple" is an utterly vacuous assertion that, while trivially true, is not even wrong. Of course life is more complicated, something on the order of 10^30 atoms were involved! Is JonFish85 incorrect that the person in question could have chosen to abide by the terms of his parole?
  - sbuk 13y ago
    Or you could use your imagination and empathy to try and try to understand how "It isn't that simple". Both are important engineering, design and entrepreneurial skills.
  - adamlett 13y ago
    > Could you explain the relevant complexity, particularly as it applies to this example? Maybe it's simple if all a parolee has to do is to make sure he spends every single night in the halfway home. That might not make a lot of sense, but if that was the _only_ rule he had to follow, it might be simple. My guess is there are many rules to follow, and a lot of them don't make sense to the individual parolee. A rule like having to spend every single night at the halfway home is there for a reason, but the reason (probably) is not to prevent parolees from seeing their girlfriends. So it's easy for someone to think that they aren't doing anything wrong when spending the night at their girlfriend's, even if they might be aware that they are -- technically -- breaking a rule. They might also (naïvely) expect to be met with some kind of reasonably response to said rule violation. People have difficulty with rules that don't make sense to them. It's very easy to think: "This can't possibly apply to me in this situation". Finally, one more thought: I know this is borderline Godwin, but this reminds me of rape and blaming the victim. Like in, it was her own fault for wearing a short dress. This is a case of someone who was the victim of an injustice. Does it really make a lot of sense to talk about what he, the victim, might have done differently?
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      People have difficulty with rules that don't make sense to them. It's very easy to think: "This can't possibly apply to me in this situation". When a convicted criminal demonstrates an inability to follow rules they don't agree with, that's an indicator that they might commit additional crimes. For example, "this law against rape can't possibly apply to me in this situation where she was asking for it". Parole is intended only for criminals with a low probability of committing additional crimes. The burden is on the convicted criminal to demonstrate that they are unlikely to commit new crimes. Look, if he was convicted of nonviolent drug offenses, I agree he is a victim. But he's a victim of drug laws, not the parole system. The parole system is doing the right thing here.
      - anon4 13y ago
        Please keep your autism in check.
      - 13y ago
  - onetwofiveten 13y ago
    I think it's a bit like saying all morbidly obese people can simply stop eating food and then they will lose weight. It's technically true, but it's unrealistic to the point of being vacuous in itself. In this case saying "it isn't that simple" means that we live in a completely different world, and experience completely different aspirations and incentives than the person in the article. You and I might think it simple to abide by the terms of parole if we were ever arrested. However, in reality, the people discussed in the article, black people trapped in poverty, do get drawn towards crime and do find it hard to stick to their parole. If you think that means they are deficient as people, then that is more than a little self serving. You might as well puff yourself up and tell yourself they are poor because they deserve to be poor, not because they were born into it. The simple truth is, if there is no incentive for a people to participate in mainstream society then it doesn't matter how hard you harry them, they won't participate. If jail seems like an inevitability, and meaningful work an impossibility, then the decision to inconvenience yourself in order to stick to the terms of your parole is not easy. If you want to modify a person's behaviour through punishment, then bad behaviour has to be punished fairly and then forgiven, followed by a chance to earn rewards through good behaviour. The situation described in the article is one of nothing but punishment, with inevitable results.
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      Poor black men are not helpless babies unable to make choices for themselves. And if a given individual (regardless of race or income) is a well-muscled 200lb helpless baby with uncontrollable violent impulses, he needs to kept away from the rest of us. The same is true of all sorts of other people with different experiences, aspirations and incentives - for example, child molesters, serial killers and radical islamic proponents ofhonor killings and FGM (don't google it if you don't know the acronym, you don't want to know). Asserting that people can't make choices about their life is, in legal terms, asserting their incompetence. Generally speaking, we institutionalize the incompetent. We don't allow them to run around harming themselves and others, sign contracts, and the like. You might as well puff yourself up and tell yourself they are poor because they deserve to be poor, not because they were born into it. Lets make this issue slightly less morality-based (striking the word "deserve") and more empirical. What evidence (if any) would convince you that poor people become and stay poor primarily as a result of their own choices? then bad behaviour has to be punished fairly and then forgiven, followed by a chance to earn rewards through good behaviour. The man in question was rewarded for good behavior, with parole. Taco Bell further rewarded him for good behavior with money. His bad behavior was punished, and at his next parole hearing further good behavior may be rewarded again. Does he also deserve cash prizes or trophies for not committing crimes?
  - onetwofiveten 13y ago
    I think it's a bit like saying all morbidly obese people can simply stop eating food and then they will lose weight. It's technically true, but it's unrealistic to the point of being vacuous in itself. In this case saying "it isn't that simple" means that we live in a completely different world, and experience completely different aspirations and incentives than the person in the article. You and I might think it simple to abide by the terms of parole if we were ever arrested. However, in reality, the people discussed in the article, black people trapped in poverty, do get drawn towards crime and do find it hard to stick to their parole. If you think that means they are deficient as people, then that is more than a little self serving. You might as well puff yourself up and tell yourself they are poor because they deserve to be poor, not because they were born into it. The simple truth is, if there is no incentive for a people to participate in mainstream society then it doesn't matter how hard you harry them, they won't participate. If jail seems like an inevitability, and meaningful work an impossibility, then the decision to inconvenience yourself in order to stick to the terms of your parole is not easy. To modify a person's behaviour through punishment, then bad behaviour has to be punished fairly and then forgiven, followed by a chance to earn rewards through good behaviour. The situation described in the article is one of nothing but punishment, with inevitable results.
  - anaccountonhn 13y ago
    I think we can agree that we don't know the facts about what"the person in question" (mike) chose to do that led to the terms of his parole being violated. Maybe he was stopped and questioned by police, and couldn't get transportation back to the parole house in time. Maybe he was doing a drug deal our saving a burning bus full of children. Parole officers aren't required to make exceptions for these things. Reality its complex, which is why some networking algos have which is why h and failure modes. He can choose to try, or choose to do his best, but he can't choose to amide by the terms any more than you can choose to catch the bus.
    - tedunangst 13y ago
      It said he decided to sleep at his girlfriends. Where does the bus full of children enter the story?
      - tossacct 13y ago
        In the article it stated that names and events were changed to protect people from the crimes committed. Maybe he was breaking the law, maybe he was helping children, maybe he was the victim of a crime like the other fellow who had his face smashed in and had reasons not to go to the hospital.
        tedunangst 13y ago
        If I were writing such an article and needed to change the reason why he couldn't go to the halfway house, I would make up another reason why he couldn't go instead of making up the fact that he decided not to go. That's just sloppy journalism.

angersock 13y ago

"living by the conditions of the parole" That's well and good, but there are numerous shit luck things that can happen that might result in a technical parole violation, right?

thenerdfiles 13y ago
"My neighbor asked me to walk their dog..."

girvo 13y ago

If only it was that simple. Life isn't, unfortunately, but parole expects it to be.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
Could you explain the relevant complexity, particularly as it applies to this example? "It isn't that simple" is an utterly vacuous assertion that, while trivially true, is not even wrong. Of course life is more complicated, something on the order of 10^30 atoms were involved! Is JonFish85 incorrect that the person in question could have chosen to abide by the terms of his parole?
- sbuk 13y ago
  Or you could use your imagination and empathy to try and try to understand how "It isn't that simple". Both are important engineering, design and entrepreneurial skills.
- adamlett 13y ago
  > Could you explain the relevant complexity, particularly as it applies to this example? Maybe it's simple if all a parolee has to do is to make sure he spends every single night in the halfway home. That might not make a lot of sense, but if that was the _only_ rule he had to follow, it might be simple. My guess is there are many rules to follow, and a lot of them don't make sense to the individual parolee. A rule like having to spend every single night at the halfway home is there for a reason, but the reason (probably) is not to prevent parolees from seeing their girlfriends. So it's easy for someone to think that they aren't doing anything wrong when spending the night at their girlfriend's, even if they might be aware that they are -- technically -- breaking a rule. They might also (naïvely) expect to be met with some kind of reasonably response to said rule violation. People have difficulty with rules that don't make sense to them. It's very easy to think: "This can't possibly apply to me in this situation". Finally, one more thought: I know this is borderline Godwin, but this reminds me of rape and blaming the victim. Like in, it was her own fault for wearing a short dress. This is a case of someone who was the victim of an injustice. Does it really make a lot of sense to talk about what he, the victim, might have done differently?
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    People have difficulty with rules that don't make sense to them. It's very easy to think: "This can't possibly apply to me in this situation". When a convicted criminal demonstrates an inability to follow rules they don't agree with, that's an indicator that they might commit additional crimes. For example, "this law against rape can't possibly apply to me in this situation where she was asking for it". Parole is intended only for criminals with a low probability of committing additional crimes. The burden is on the convicted criminal to demonstrate that they are unlikely to commit new crimes. Look, if he was convicted of nonviolent drug offenses, I agree he is a victim. But he's a victim of drug laws, not the parole system. The parole system is doing the right thing here.
    - anon4 13y ago
      Please keep your autism in check.
    - 13y ago
- onetwofiveten 13y ago
  I think it's a bit like saying all morbidly obese people can simply stop eating food and then they will lose weight. It's technically true, but it's unrealistic to the point of being vacuous in itself. In this case saying "it isn't that simple" means that we live in a completely different world, and experience completely different aspirations and incentives than the person in the article. You and I might think it simple to abide by the terms of parole if we were ever arrested. However, in reality, the people discussed in the article, black people trapped in poverty, do get drawn towards crime and do find it hard to stick to their parole. If you think that means they are deficient as people, then that is more than a little self serving. You might as well puff yourself up and tell yourself they are poor because they deserve to be poor, not because they were born into it. The simple truth is, if there is no incentive for a people to participate in mainstream society then it doesn't matter how hard you harry them, they won't participate. If jail seems like an inevitability, and meaningful work an impossibility, then the decision to inconvenience yourself in order to stick to the terms of your parole is not easy. If you want to modify a person's behaviour through punishment, then bad behaviour has to be punished fairly and then forgiven, followed by a chance to earn rewards through good behaviour. The situation described in the article is one of nothing but punishment, with inevitable results.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    Poor black men are not helpless babies unable to make choices for themselves. And if a given individual (regardless of race or income) is a well-muscled 200lb helpless baby with uncontrollable violent impulses, he needs to kept away from the rest of us. The same is true of all sorts of other people with different experiences, aspirations and incentives - for example, child molesters, serial killers and radical islamic proponents ofhonor killings and FGM (don't google it if you don't know the acronym, you don't want to know). Asserting that people can't make choices about their life is, in legal terms, asserting their incompetence. Generally speaking, we institutionalize the incompetent. We don't allow them to run around harming themselves and others, sign contracts, and the like. You might as well puff yourself up and tell yourself they are poor because they deserve to be poor, not because they were born into it. Lets make this issue slightly less morality-based (striking the word "deserve") and more empirical. What evidence (if any) would convince you that poor people become and stay poor primarily as a result of their own choices? then bad behaviour has to be punished fairly and then forgiven, followed by a chance to earn rewards through good behaviour. The man in question was rewarded for good behavior, with parole. Taco Bell further rewarded him for good behavior with money. His bad behavior was punished, and at his next parole hearing further good behavior may be rewarded again. Does he also deserve cash prizes or trophies for not committing crimes?
- onetwofiveten 13y ago
  I think it's a bit like saying all morbidly obese people can simply stop eating food and then they will lose weight. It's technically true, but it's unrealistic to the point of being vacuous in itself. In this case saying "it isn't that simple" means that we live in a completely different world, and experience completely different aspirations and incentives than the person in the article. You and I might think it simple to abide by the terms of parole if we were ever arrested. However, in reality, the people discussed in the article, black people trapped in poverty, do get drawn towards crime and do find it hard to stick to their parole. If you think that means they are deficient as people, then that is more than a little self serving. You might as well puff yourself up and tell yourself they are poor because they deserve to be poor, not because they were born into it. The simple truth is, if there is no incentive for a people to participate in mainstream society then it doesn't matter how hard you harry them, they won't participate. If jail seems like an inevitability, and meaningful work an impossibility, then the decision to inconvenience yourself in order to stick to the terms of your parole is not easy. To modify a person's behaviour through punishment, then bad behaviour has to be punished fairly and then forgiven, followed by a chance to earn rewards through good behaviour. The situation described in the article is one of nothing but punishment, with inevitable results.
- anaccountonhn 13y ago
  I think we can agree that we don't know the facts about what"the person in question" (mike) chose to do that led to the terms of his parole being violated. Maybe he was stopped and questioned by police, and couldn't get transportation back to the parole house in time. Maybe he was doing a drug deal our saving a burning bus full of children. Parole officers aren't required to make exceptions for these things. Reality its complex, which is why some networking algos have which is why h and failure modes. He can choose to try, or choose to do his best, but he can't choose to amide by the terms any more than you can choose to catch the bus.
  - tedunangst 13y ago
    It said he decided to sleep at his girlfriends. Where does the bus full of children enter the story?
    - tossacct 13y ago
      In the article it stated that names and events were changed to protect people from the crimes committed. Maybe he was breaking the law, maybe he was helping children, maybe he was the victim of a crime like the other fellow who had his face smashed in and had reasons not to go to the hospital.
      - tedunangst 13y ago
        If I were writing such an article and needed to change the reason why he couldn't go to the halfway house, I would make up another reason why he couldn't go instead of making up the fact that he decided not to go. That's just sloppy journalism.